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“crowsanwra incorrectly said The Baner St Piran predates hundreds of other National flags across the world.

Show us the evidence or be seen for what you are as Churchill said

The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.

From a member of Mk Phil Rendle flaginstitute.org

The first time that we know of anyone writing about St Piran’s flag was in 1835.
Davies Gilbert (1767-1839), towards the end of his life, finally got round to editing the histories collected by two previous writers Hals and Tonkin. He added some statistical and geological details and a few notes of his own for each of the over 200 Cornish parishes.
He was writing about the parish of Perranzabuloe (St Piran in the Sands) in 1835 – he gives the date in his book – which was published in 1938.
Here we find the first know reference to St Piran’s flag: “A white cross on a black ground was formerly the banner of St Perran and the Standard of Cornwall; prob¬ably with some allusion to the black ore and the white metal of tin”.

Making it one of the youngest and an invention”

By tylertoby Posted: June 11, 2012

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  • tylertoby  |  June 11 2012, 1:26PM

    The fact is if there was a Cornish flag it would not be so hard to find evidence of its presence, logic states the flag may have been a symbol for St Piran in the Sands, but certainly not Cornwall. There is no evidence to link any flag to Cornwall as an independent nationalist symbol. The only black flag flown over cornwall was the jolly roger

  • Gwynnhadu  |  June 11 2012, 1:38PM

    Indeed, the current Union flag dates from as recently as 1801. Assuming Phil Rendle to be correct, which I do not because there is evidence that the St. Piran flag by far predates 1835, that makes the Union flag some 34 years older that Mr Rendle's assumed date. Not too long. Further, the way things are going, it won't be around much longer either.

  • Gwynnhadu  |  June 11 2012, 1:43PM

    "crowsanwra incorrectly said The Baner St Piran predates hundreds of other National flags across the world" tylertroll Evidence above. Now I think an apology is due to crowsanwra.

  • tylertoby  |  June 11 2012, 1:51PM

    As it has never been a national flag. So it has no date, what a minority would like others to believe just does not change it into a fact, more to the point it can never be a national flag until the people say they want independence. These are facts which expose nationalist fibs.

  • crowsanwra  |  June 11 2012, 2:26PM

    I did record flag adoption dates of 20 modern nations and then many other flags but the forum moderators chose to remove those postings. Is this forum biaised against the Cornish? Perhaps a letter to the IPCC will be required.

  • crowsanwra  |  June 11 2012, 2:27PM

    Please feel free to google 'flag' then the name of any nation. The truth will be revealed. Truth not utter bull as spoken by tylertoby.

  • KernowGB  |  June 11 2012, 2:28PM

    tylertoby said: Monday, June 11 2012 (From Thread Topic) Show us the evidence or be seen for what you are as Churchill said The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is. ----------------------------------------------- Now that really is an interesting bit of news that should go down well with tylertoby's friends as they ALL consistently failed to get to grips with honesty and integrity over Cornish Rights and the aspects of Cornish Genocide, for which evidence has been posted on various threads on this, and other, msg boards. Not forgetting tylertoby's first topic attempt here: http://tinyurl.com/bls6bg9 There is only one aspect of the Cross of St Piran, that is now relevant and that is that it is, and has been, accepted as Cornwall's National Flag by the Cornish people Worldwide. In fact, in much the same way that the Cross of St George has been by the English people. St Piran's accepted association with Cornwall, like that of St George's 'accepted association' with England is the only factor of relevance. Should we ignore the fact that the English 'replaced' their 'national symbol' with that of the Union Flag, until the time when Devolution came to Scotland and Wales? The fact that each faction chooses to oppose the other's views is nothing more than an illustration of narrow partisan differences. But then, respect has to be earned and it comes down to: Well! Who started it all, by turning their back on Evidence and Truth? @tylertoby (re Monday, June 11 2012, 1:51PM) Please see previous comment. A nation is NOT dependant upon a 'claim for independence'. The Cornish already exist as one of the nations of Britain - as per your item quoted above, namely: ----------------------------------------------- The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is. ------------------------------------------------

  • KernowGB  |  June 11 2012, 2:44PM

    @crowsanwra (re Monday, June 11 2012, 2:26PM) Just so that you have a record, I recommend that you take a copy of the threads as and when you post so that you have something to reference back to for 'evidence' of arbitrary removal, or presumed censorship.

  • Slimslad  |  June 11 2012, 3:07PM

    Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." (Albert Einstein)

  • tylertoby  |  June 11 2012, 8:13PM

    If I agreed with you crowsanwra we'd both be wrong. The best advice I can offer you is laugh at your problems, everybody else does. I am sure the IPCC will enjoy seeing the foul language you posted early, one suspects that will be overlooked by you but not others. Anyone can write a letter and take screen shoot, at least you have shown us where to send them hahaha, keep up the abuse the file grows

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 12 2012, 9:05AM

    Tylertoby does have a point. Baner Piran is the idea of a couple of historians who have turned mythology into history. Anyone over thirty will remember never seeing a baner piran in their youth . Only since the 70's has it started to appear.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 12 2012, 9:37AM

    If the flag has any pedigree surely it would feature in historic photograps and art. A national flag should certainly feature in documentation of some sort. Alas not despite thier being centuries of freedom to paint paint, record or depict this ''national flag''.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 12 2012, 10:25AM

    Is that a reference to the crusades? Could you or others be confused with the Knights Hospitalers coat of arms which is an identical design. http://tinyurl.com/7c86643

  • tylertoby  |  June 12 2012, 11:24AM

    Look under County flags ie English county http://tinyurl.com/7w67m4x

  • youngcornwall  |  June 12 2012, 11:41AM

    by H_Trevorrow "Tylertoby does have a point. Baner Piran is the idea of a couple of historians who have turned mythology into history. Anyone over thirty will remember never seeing a baner piran in their youth . Only since the 70's has it started to appear." Only thing black and white I can remember seeing was the PZ magpie's football team. This flag was just one of many of the promotional gimmicks concocted by the tourist industry mainly, didn't it become a good seller.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 12 2012, 12:23PM

    Perhaps you would be kind enough,crowsanwra, to post your 'hard evidence' on the forum you speak of. Surely you would not be censored there?

  • youngcornwall  |  June 12 2012, 12:26PM

    by crowsanwra "Yeah that's all right. I shan't be bothering to post here anymore and have joined the forum you all recommend." What a shame…You know what they say about the kitchen if it is too hot, you should fit in fine on c24 with it being a closed shop and all that.

  • tylertoby  |  June 12 2012, 12:54PM

    One absolute remains for all the claims of it being a nationalist flag, even the alleged link MK's Phil Rendle speaks of, would not be considered a link as it is just one lucid account of such a flag. Confirming its absence from all history accounts, pictures or everyday use. Confirms it is a work of pure fiction even its name confirms its true origins. In truth it is an English county symbol used to sell stickers to Emmets, its use as a symbol for Cornwall even as a county symbol is a later day invention, not a historical symbol as some wish to portrait, I see the so called expert has now run away to the other place and started asking them question confirming he is no expert as he should have researched this before claiming it was a fact and claiming he was a historian. I only asked for his comments containing personal abuse towards me to be removed, like the others not want did he offer any hard facts just Illusions of grandeur and I quote; I could so easily provide all that is asked for including hard evidence that the St Piran's flag was in use during the 12th century but I am not going to. Nobody has been able to do this otherwise Phil would have quickly retracted his comment for the party of Kernows reputation

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 12 2012, 1:07PM

    Oh dear. No 'hard evidence' so far. Whilst we wait here's my stab at this important symbol of Cornwall. First reffered to in mythology as something like the white tin cross against a black stone etc the flag is accepted as the flag of St Piran. However documentary evidence of this only turns up in 1835 and bar a couple of regurgitations of the same mythology there is no prima facia evidence of the flag being used as representative of Cornwall as a nation. The only other substantial claim to being St Piran's flag is in a stained glass window of 1888 at Westminster cathedral depicting St Micheal, St Petroc and St Piran, all Cornish saints {an odd inclusion at odds with some peoples suggestion of ''English Imperial system'' and '' genocide of the Cornish'' - why suddenly given such prominence?} During the seventies and eighties St Piran performs a miracle by becoming THE saint of Cornwall above the others , St Micheal and St Petroc, even though St Petroc was actually Cornish. Fortunately St Piran has a flag and along with the rise in Cornish awareness, perpetuated by people in a search for cultural definition, St Piran and his flag are quickly favoured as over archingly significant to Cornwall acting as a focus of what has become a political football. Namely gaining power under the guise of cultural or ethnic right. Alas documentary evidence of Baner Piran as a totem of nationhood are nowhere to be found. It has become the flag of the county of Cornwall only by determined persuasion of Cornish devolutionists .

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 13 2012, 9:33AM

    Have you all 'been on something' or is there madness in the air? What on earth are the above ramblings about? Encyclopaedia Britannica dates the St. Piran's flag to the 12th century. It also dates the Union flag to the beginning of the 19th. Get over it!

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 13 2012, 9:54AM

    Oh, and there they suddenly disappear. All that writing for nothing!

  • tylertoby  |  June 13 2012, 10:48AM

    Conspicuous by its absence, but if you search hard enough the nats have infiltrated a few publication and claim the English have removed it from paintings. Let's ignore the realms of reality which clearly point out it was never a national flag which is clearly the conclusion to draw from its absence in history and ignore it's a flag from Perranzabuloe aka St Pirian aka saint so let's sell the dream and ignore the facts

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 11:37AM

    Conspicuous indeed. The nationalist argument depends heavily on the ccornish being simply a protectorate of england and that their language and culture can be shown to be continuous and not really extinct. Funnu that the records of this flag can be counted on one hand . You would expect hundreds of paintings or written references. Chy i think you'll find the encyclopedia refeerenceis not at all conclusive- along the lines of maybe -perhaps -thought to be. .

  • Taxman100  |  June 13 2012, 11:56AM

    It never ceases to amaze me how Cornish Nationalist's attempt to alter historical facts for their own political gain. The Standard, or Flag of St. Piran, was first recorded in 1835. It does pre-date many national flags; most notably of those countries which gained independence from the UK, France etc. However, the Flags of the four nations comprising the UK, the Cross of St George, the Cross saltire of St Andrew, the Cross saltire of St Patrick and the Welsh Dragon, all pre-date 1835 by a very, very, considerable margin. Gwynnhadu claims the Flag of St. Piran pre-dates the current Union Flag. The Union Flag was instituted in 1606 by James 1 of England, VI of Scotland, and was only MODIFIED in 1801, when the Cross saltire of St Patrick was added. Likewise the American Flag was modified when Hawaii became the 50th State. Therefore, the Union Flag pre-dates that of St Piran: again by a very considerable margin. Also, the Nationalists usually claim one of the following: 1. St. Pirans Flag was modelled on the Flag of St David (Wales) - Yellow Cross on a Black background. 2. It is the reverse image of the flag of the Bretons - black cross on a white background. In all probability it was based, like some of the other County flags, on the Cross of St. George of England - and there were not too many nationalists around (probably none) at the time to lodge a political objection!

  • tylertoby  |  June 13 2012, 12:40PM

    I suspect some of the comments you make are true Taxman but the confusion is between a national flag – Myth and county flag accepted. Nobody disputes the flag use as a county flag, the argument is its use as a national flag which hits two road blocks; One it has never been a national flag Two Cornwall has never been a nation Subtle difference, even as a county flag it was never really adopted until the mid-70s – 80s. Meaning when people date the flag they are dating the flag as used by Perranzabuloe and the saint but not used on mass to represent the Cornish County until the 70s. This is how the nats weave these myths.

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 13 2012, 12:52PM

    As their army men pass the door on the way home, they draw their redundancy notices. I guess the same is the case for the RAF in its declining years. But when does the RAF flag date from? Also in decline, when does the most recent version of the star spangled banner of the USA date from? Very much buying out the world including the fast decaying E.I.S. I wonder when the flag of China dates from? Cornwall, a Nation and a Celtic Country. Engerland's first colony.

  • Taxman100  |  June 13 2012, 2:17PM

    Tylerboy. I agree with you. Cornwall is not a Celtic Nation, and therefore the Flag cannot be classed as a national one - no matter how big they make it. It is also true it was not recognised as a County flag until the mid to late 80's. ie: at the time of the rise of Cornish Nationalism (I cannot remember whether it was the second, third, or fourth resurrection). Chy_Howlek clearly has no knowledge of the British Armed Forces, else he would not make such cheap and snide comments. It seems he believes everything is in decline except Cornish Nationalism. Sadly, Cornish Nationalism is leading Cornwall as whole into decline.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 2:23PM

    In conclusion. The flag of st piran is a saints flag very recently adopted as the county flag of cornwall nothing more.

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 13 2012, 3:31PM

    So, in conclusion, the national Flag of Cornwall has been accepted now as the Saint Piran's Flag, dating back to the 12th Century whereas the George 'Blood' Flag of England is borrowed from overseas, Genoa and other places, is militaristic, and disappeared when the Union flag supplanted it but has made a renewal now in the hands of EDL/BNP extremists and football hooligans. Yep, all correct thus far. Now, back to my original questions: As their army men pass the door on the way home, they draw their redundancy notices. I guess the same is the case for the RAF in its declining years. But when does the RAF flag date from? Also in decline, when does the most recent version of the star spangled banner of the USA date from? Very much buying out the world including the fast decaying E.I.S. I wonder when the flag of China dates from? Cornwall, a Nation and a Celtic Country. Engerland's first colony.

  • tylertoby  |  June 13 2012, 3:47PM

    "In conclusion. The flag of st piran is a saints flag very recently adopted as the county flag of cornwall nothing more." That's what the evidence shows

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 13 2012, 3:54PM

    So, in conclusion and according to Encyclopaedia Britannica, the national Flag of Cornwall has been accepted now as the Saint Piran's Flag, dating back to the 12th Century whereas the George 'Blood' Flag of England is borrowed from overseas, Genoa and other places, is militaristic, and disappeared when the Union flag supplanted it but has made a renewal now in the hands of EDL/BNP extremists and football hooligans. Yep, all correct thus far. Now, back to my original questions: As their army men pass the door on the way home, they draw their redundancy notices. I guess the same is the case for the RAF in its declining years. But when does the RAF flag date from? Also in decline, when does the most recent version of the star spangled banner of the USA date from? Very much buying out the world including the fast decaying E.I.S. I wonder when the flag of China dates from? Cornwall, a Nation and a Celtic Country. Engerland's first colony.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 4:10PM

    first The Encyclopaedia Britannica article referred to a banner flown at Agincourt which is still used by the Cornish Wrestling Association today. The Cornish Wrestling Association banner is gold with the black outline of two wrestlers in a hitch

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 4:29PM

    second no known reference to st pirans flaf before Davies Gilberts book of 1835. Therefore the invention of one man. All other assertions are the wishfull thinking of cornish nationalists and the c24 groupies agree.

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 13 2012, 4:42PM

    By the way Tony, there is only one 'l' in wishful.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 5:04PM

    Chy sorry to destroy your fantasy. Iappreciate it is difficult for you to learn you have been mislead and lied to. Surely you can believe the words of an MK ex member Phil Rendle http://tinyurl.com/c3kom7m

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 13 2012, 5:16PM

    "There are claims that the design dates from prior to 1188 when the flag was used in the Crusades and an article in Encyclopædia Britannica tells that the flag was carried by the Cornish contingent at the Battle of Agincourt (1415)" Never voted MK! "Cornish never English. Cornwall never England."

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 5:32PM

    Any link to the text you quote Chy

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 6:04PM

    Without any reference to source and in the face of the mountain of evidence provided contradicting you i think you are only belittling your own cause Chy.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 6:25PM

    Chy by now having had time to read http://tinyurl.com/c3kom7m" you must be thoroughly outraged and saddened to learn of the fraudulent nature of the flag you obviously hold so dear. I do hope this sad trurn of events hasn't been too hard for you to bear. I personally blame the cornish nationalist movement for promoting this false flag from about the 1950's onwards.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 6:51PM

    The next obvious question may be, having lied about this most sacred of symbols the st piran flag myth, what else are they lying about?

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 13 2012, 8:01PM

    The flag that flies outside the seat of government in Kernow at Lys Kernow as well as outside most town halls in our Country is fine enough for me. Now, to revert to my earlier and unanswered questions: When does the RAF flag date from? Also in decline, when does the most recent version of the star spangled banner of the USA date from? Very much buying out the world including the fast decaying E.I.S. I wonder when the flag of China dates from? Cornwall, a Nation and a Celtic Country. Engerland's first colony. England, a mere myth.

  • Slimslad  |  June 13 2012, 10:02PM

    When did the phrase "Baner St Piran" first appear? Certainly this year, I think?

  • Slimslad  |  June 13 2012, 10:03PM

    Yes. This year. http://tinyurl.com/dysjy5b

  • KernowGB  |  June 13 2012, 10:25PM

    Probably worth reminding everyone of my post at (Monday, June 11 2012, 2:28PM) and then questioning the purpose of such a thread topic seeking some high status credibility with the following quote: --------------------------------------- Show us the evidence or be seen for what you are as Churchill said: The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is. ---------------------------------------- Only to find that you have picked on a particular subject (of Flags) for which, in the main, their adoption is more a matter of 'popularity, and symbolic acceptance' than to any particulars of origin. How is it possible to even begin to arrive at any truth. Flags are pure symbols of some form of Identity and association. Does that not also provide an alternative indicator of 'being seen for what you are?' by even introducing such a go nowhere subjective topic? I personally, have no concerns about the flag's origins, It has been universally accepted as the Flag and Symbol of our Country at just about every level and the fact that now, in reaction to provable claims of abused Cornish Rights, there is a panic attempt at 'denying' and 'denigrating' this universally accepted symbol of Cornishness. One must truly question the motives of 'the usual group' in taking this step. It cannot have gone unnoticed by others that it is the same handful of people, using the same tactics, as they use to decry anything that comes across as pro-Cornish and that despite the above quote of Churchill, they themselves do not provide evidence to substantiate their assertions. The subjectivity of this thread is no more than that - Subjectivity, because there can be no proof. Even the references to the 'absence of historical text' is a nonsense, because even today, one has a real job to find much that is pro-Cornish anywhere within the general audio-visual-print news media. To engage with such people is purely to play 'their game'. Let them start proving some of their claims - if they can!

  • KernowForward  |  June 13 2012, 10:36PM

    Of course it can only be conjecture now but it would have been interesting (if Cornish written records had not been systematically destroyed at intervals since Roman times by various English institutions) to see if there was any reference to St Piran's flag contained within them. It would also be interesting to see if there was any reference to the Cornish flag in the Duchy records - but then, unfortunately, this is not allowed by the current owner of the 'private estate'.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 11:02PM

    @kERNOWFORWARD The total lack of recorded history of this flag must have required a breathtaking efficiency - no diary references no personal letters etc etc - pull the other one. @KERNOWGB The flag has been accepted as the county flag based on one reference from mr gilbert { reading mr gilbert's parish records he also contends that king athelsten got as far as sennen - so his history is decidely dodgy- however if he is right that requires you to revamp your theories} Nobody argues that it is now the accepted symbol of the county--- the argument is that it has only been promoted as such a symbol by cornish nats since very recently and that claim has been based on bogus histoical twistory. If you want to win hearts and minds at least treat us with enough respect to give a true picture.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 13 2012, 11:25PM

    @KEROW GB In nutshell you've encouraged and allowed these little fibs to grow and in consequence the rest of your theories are suspect. Penny dropped yet?

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 14 2012, 8:05AM

    The E.I.S. is capable of anything but there is no doubt in my mind that the Baner Peran is an old symbol, that Kernow is Engerland's oldest colony and that that flag is now our National one. It is a more honest flag than the E.I.S. construed Union Flag of 1801. A flag which might uddenly end if all goes well in 2016 with Scotland. Now, of dates and things: When does the RAF flag date from? Also in decline, when does the most recent version of the star spangled banner of the USA date from? Very much buying out the world including the fast decaying E.I.S. I wonder when the flag of China dates from? Cornwall, a Nation and a Celtic Country. Engerland's first colony. England, a mere myth.

  • KernowGB  |  June 14 2012, 10:23AM

    @H_Trevorrow (re Wednesday, June 13 2012, 11:02PM & Wednesday, June 13 2012, 11:25PM) Unlike you, I do not automatically doubt the integrity of Davies Gilbert and, as I have said the current acceptance of 'the Flag' as the national flag of Cornwall by popular acceptance is now the only factor that is relevant. It is even accepted by the church so that the former Saint of the "Cornish miners" has now been reclassified as the Saint of the "Cornish people". The people are the nation and they have chosen the Banner of their Saint, St Piran, as their national flag! This has nothing, at all, to do with your obsessive reference to "county", which has been shown elsewhere to be a provable lie of immaculate, and 'official' proportions, and part of a process that I discuss elsewhere. 'The county' is an externally imposed puppet civil administration. Now there is something to really get your teeth into - isn't it? Why do you avoid that little incontrovertible truth, along with others that have been brought to everyone's attention here and elsewhere? Regrettably, I cannot take anything that any of your little group say very seriously at all. You are, of course, entitled to your unsubstantiated opinions, which is all that they are, but try arguing from a position of understanding rather than prejudice. Just because you automatically, and arrogantly, consider someone's historical reference maybe a lie does not make it so. The issue needs to be looked at from a much broader perspective than mere prejudice. where have you all been for the past 60-70 years? I have been very aware of St Piran's flag since the 1950s and it was well established by then. It is only public awareness, and the people's desire for some Cornish sympolism (q.v. Cornish National Tartan) that has made it even more obvious and popular. It is called being proud to be seen to be Cornish! Try it sometime and fully understand what is at stake, when you do not.

  • tylertoby  |  June 14 2012, 1:08PM

    The biggest damage the nats do is to make real Cornish people nervous about displaying Cornish symbols through fear they will be considered a separatist rather than Cornish, exactly the same thing has happened with regards to other extremist narrow-minded organisations such as the BNP who have turned displaying national flags into a racist event. For this alone I stand against both radical groups and deniers of the truth. As I said at the top; the truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is. Thus ""In conclusion. The flag of st piran is a saints flag very recently adopted as the county flag of cornwall nothing more."

  • KernowGB  |  June 14 2012, 1:17PM

    @H_Trevorrow (re Thursday, June 14 2012, 11:15AM) The issue of the Cornish National Tartan is a matter of public record, which you can research yourself. There was nothing covert about it, nor was it fake, but it does not surprise anyone to note that you, and others like you might wish to present it as such. Its innovation was in keeping with other Celtic Nations at that time (late 1950s?) and its introduction was immediately seized upon by the Cornish people worldwide. That is a perfectly legitimate step to take in conjunction with the other Celtic Nations. No one has ever said that it links to any separate civilisation - whatever you mean by that?. It was designed by, and for, the Cornish, as one of the historic people of Britain, and they have made it the success that it undoubtedly is, because there was an urgent need for them to do so. Certainly not artificial, but definitely, potent, symbols of a National identity. It all comes down to people gradually becoming more aware of 'The Truth' and what they are losing at the hands of others. Others, that you and your friends seem to be in unholy alliance with, given the 'deny', 'denigrate' and 'divert' tactics being used. When a national group begin to realise what has been, or is being, destroyed by others having external control over their lives and their historical attributes, the first thing that happens is a search for, and protection of, their cultural identity. You obviously do not understand that phenomenon, but it exists throughout the world as minority nations seek to recover their cultural identity that can be seen to be being wrested from them by imperial power, deceits and exploitations. The same has also been true of the use of the Flag of St Piran. It is not a mystery and is, again, in the public domain and has been for many many decades. If there is any deceit surrounding Cornwall and its constitution, that only emanates from external sources - as discussed elsewhere - and from those that aspire to be associated with those sources. If you find any of the above strange, then, as I have already asked: Where have you all been for the past 60-70 years or more? Therefore they are certainly not fake, but as with all symbols and symbolism (and by definition derived as such by need), they have been a very necessary attribute that the 'Cornish' people have confirmed as being very necessary to them as 'Cornish' people. Perhaps those that do not feel such a need might re-evaluate their positions? How, for example do you explain the return to use of the Flag of St George post Devolution? What are indeed 'fake' attributes of symbolism within our little Country are the impositions of various forms of externally imposed 'English' symbolism, because that only seeks to reinforce the provable lies and deception that impose the erroneous concept, and perception, of Cornwall being 'in England'.

  • Taxman100  |  June 14 2012, 1:30PM

    KGB, comments, "and the people's desire for some Cornish sympolism (q.v. Cornish National Tartan) that has made it even more obvious and popular" Perhaps, he should take a look at the records at the Tartan Society. There he would discover, the 'Cornish' Tartans (Circa the ancient 1980's) were all registered by individuals, and were not registered on behalf of the people of Cornwall - they were registered by known Cornish Nationalists. The Nationalists seek, and still seek, to mislead the public by implying their 'Cornish Tartans' are in some way 'Celtic'; they are not. I know I am a Cornishman, and I do not need to wear a 'Cornish Tartan' to prove it! (Although I still wear my Regimental Tartan and play the Great Pipes). I wonder why the people of Devon are not wearing 'Celtic Tartans'? After all recent, and continuing, scientific studies have, and continue to indicate there are more 'Celts' in Devon, per head of population, than there are in Cornwall or Wales.

  • Gurnards_Head  |  June 14 2012, 1:55PM

    What a boringly sad repetitive bunch of pedants you all are. So there is a flag... a symbol... like all other flags it is a piece of cloth that needs wind to flap. Well admittedly theres plenty of that around here. The energy wasted arguing over what may or may not have been is futile get over it. Henry Ford said history is bunk... I am beggining to understand what he meant!

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 14 2012, 3:41PM

    Cornwall - A History by Professor Philip Payton. ISBN 978-1-904880-05-09 Pages 262 to 263: "...the black and white banner of St. Piran, described in 1826 by Davies Gilbert as ANCIENTLY the standard of St. Piran and the banner of Cornwall" and follows. Potted CV of Professor Payton - Director of the Institute of Cornish Studies, Combined Universities Cornwall; two doctorates; Reader 1995; Professor 2000; retired Royal Navy Officer; Author of over 30 books. Who do I believe, Professor Payton or the numpties here? Yep, Professor Payton has it every time! Read his book as above. Baner Peran has flown outside Lys Kernow since 1985. An ANCIENT banner it is. I am Cornish not ever English. By birthright; family heritage; gene; heartfelt feelings; legal right; Cornwall Council recognition; language useage; medical recording; Passport ID; I don't post on Cornwall 24. The English are a myth.

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 14 2012, 3:44PM

    The Scottish Tartans are recent inventions. I respect them. Mind you they are older than the Union Flag of 1801 to 2016. The English Army invents tartans and flags all the time even whilst in decline. Now, to revert to my earlier and unanswered questions: When does the RAF flag date from? Also in decline, when does the most recent version of the star spangled banner of the USA date from? Very much buying out the world including the fast decaying E.I.S. I wonder when the flag of China dates from? Cornwall, a Nation and a Celtic Country. Engerland's first colony. England, a mere myth.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 14 2012, 4:34PM

    Finally me, Chy , Professer Philip Payton and the entire world agree on something ie - that Davies Gilbert wrote about this flag in 1835 but no earlier evidence exsists. Here is a screen shot of the actual page. http://tinyurl.com/7c4utvt Even your more learned freinds have had the grace to conceed here Chy. Don't allow them to make a fool of you again. You remind me of a Japanese soldier found defending a tropical island 40 years after the cessation of war.

  • Gurnards_Head  |  June 14 2012, 4:41PM

    You are very good at guessing Trevorrow, perchance you are correct, but then again maybe not and getting posts removed that dont suit your purposes by the look of it.

  • Slimslad  |  June 14 2012, 4:41PM

    "When does the RAF flag date from?" The Royal Air Force did not exist before 1918. The flag followed in 1921. The point being?

  • Taxman100  |  June 14 2012, 4:47PM

    The Scottish Tartan's are not a recent invention. The Union Flag was first introduced in 1606, and modified in 1801 - what is it CH cannot understand about that fact. He also continues to predict the outcome of a Scottish referendum - I wish I had his Crystal Ball. The British Army Regiments do not invent Tartan's. My Regimental Tartan was authorised to be worn by the Regiment by its Sottish founder - long before Cornish Nationalism ever existed. The only organisation in decline is that of the Celtic League, who would appear to be the 'rag, tag and bobtail' remnants of the Communist and the Trotsky League. Whose alias may well be 'the occupy movement', to name but one!

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 14 2012, 4:49PM

    The RAF flag was created in 1921. It is so new I don't recognise it. I believe Prof. Payton. I don't believe a word of any trolling comments on here. Prof. Payton talks of the ANCIENT flag of Piran in his book. Read his CV. I would take a degree course with him any time as have thousands of others. England and the English are a myth. They don't exist. They are a modern invention.

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 14 2012, 5:05PM

    Scottish tartans are a fairly recent invention.I respect them. The fast declining English army has created many along with banners and flags but is now in such a poor state north of English border with Scotland that its made up tartans are fast fading. Tartans come originally from the middle of Europe.

  • poldice  |  June 14 2012, 5:07PM

    Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." J R Tolkien

  • KernowGB  |  June 14 2012, 7:46PM

    by Taxman100 - Thursday, June 14 2012, 1:30PM "KGB, comments, ------------------------------- "and the people's desire for some Cornish sympolism (q.v. Cornish National Tartan) that has made it even more obvious and popular" ------------------------------- Perhaps, he should take a look at the records at the Tartan Society. There he would discover, the 'Cornish' Tartans (Circa the ancient 1980's) were all registered by individuals, and were not registered on behalf of the people of Cornwall - they were registered by known Cornish Nationalists. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps you could please explain why you seek to imply that my statement is incorrect, rather than just resorting to innuendo, so that I might give it a proper response. A list of the "Cornish Tartans" and when, and by whom, they were registered, would be a bonus. ===================================== by Taxman100 - Thursday, June 14 2012, 1:30PM The Nationalists seek, and still seek, to mislead the public by implying their 'Cornish Tartans' are in some way 'Celtic'; they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Why mix your responses, without clarifying what/who it is that you are responding to? Where has what you are saying being said, and, if incorrect, why is it incorrect? ====================================== by Taxman100 - Thursday, June 14 2012, 1:30PM I know I am a Cornishman, and I do not need to wear a 'Cornish Tartan' to prove it! (Although I still wear my Regimental Tartan and play the Great Pipes). ---------------------------------------------------------------- You are a very confused 'Cornishman' that seems to spend all his time promoting 'Englishness' upon a non-English territory and people, whilst at the same time 'denying' and 'denigrating' anything that represents 'pro-Cornish' aspirations. There are a number of technical names for that - none of which are something that anyone should be 'publicly' proud of. In fact, there is a whole thread devoted to one of them. ======================================= by Taxman100 - Thursday, June 14 2012, 1:30PM I wonder why the people of Devon are not wearing 'Celtic Tartans'? After all recent, and continuing, scientific studies have, and continue to indicate there are more 'Celts' in Devon, per head of population, than there are in Cornwall or Wales." -------------------------------------------------------------------- Is that a fact? So you have still failed to work that one out. Well, who would have ever believed it, a real mystery. There really is a lot of information out there to help you, if you read the right material. You usually seem to have all the answers, so what is the problem?

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 14 2012, 8:18PM

    What is your infatuation with names tylertoby? Two wrong identifications in an hour. Would a more suitable hobby like trainspotting be more suitable perhaps?

  • Chy_Howlek  |  June 15 2012, 8:20AM

    Rather than posting here, I have captured all of the postings by trevorrow and others and sent them to the relevant agencies. This will be conducted in future without posting as my time is better spent on that rather than posting here.

  • Slimslad  |  June 15 2012, 2:09PM

    "I have captured all of the postings"? And marched them off into captivity? LOL

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 15 2012, 2:38PM

    LOL Oh dear poor old postings. lol

  • Taxman100  |  June 16 2012, 10:01AM

    tylertoby. Again you are correct in your assessment of the Nationalists who post on this site. CH seems to be of the opinion (his threats to report) that he is correct in all things and others are classified as being abusive if they dare to disagree with his comments - conveniently ignoring his own abusive comments which we sensibly ignore. CH and others are under the allusion they are some sort of minority/ethnic group, and should receive special treatment. They are nothing of the sort. In the real world, they are just another extreme left-wing political group who have few followers. Their little rally held during the river Pageant in London (lets say a gathering of 1,000, and that is being generous) during The Queen's Jubilee confirms my comment. The cornerstones of the UK are, freedom, democracy and the right to free speech, and hundreds of thousands of British Servicemen and women have died in order we may maintain those elementary rights. We have those rights, but CH and Co., claim differently. They do not fool anyone! The same group claim to be 'Cornish' and say they can define 'Cornishness'. The strange thing is they tell us, who are Cornish by any definition what Cornishness is, which surely must be considered somewhat arrogant of them. A number of those who attempt to advise us are only 'Cornish' by self definition, and are in reality from other countries within the UK, including Wales - one such individual does not even use his real name on documents, yet still advises us as to what 'Cornishness' is! It would be laughable if it wasn't true. I am a Cornishman, I am English, and I do not need a small bunch of extreme left-wing 'politicians' to tell me how I should think, believe, or behave - that only occurs in single party or Communist States.

  • KernowGB  |  June 16 2012, 6:27PM

    @Taxman100 (re Saturday, June 16 2012, 10:01AM) Perhaps another invitation to revisit the "Cornish Genocide and the Truth?" thread is once again appropriate? What we are, more importantly, free to do is to gain knowledge so that our words and actions are properly informed. http://tinyurl.com/d9o8gx4 And try and understand the true significance of the start of your last paragraph, in relationship to the link provided. Which of the many meanings of 'English' do you mean?

  • H_Trevorrow  |  June 16 2012, 10:53PM

    ''Nation of Cornwall'' ???? Just an invention. ''NATION OF CORNWALL'' ????? Write it in letters 20 foot high it is even morel ridiculous a notion- - - espoused by those intent on political ambition--------exclusively from the far left of the political spectrum ---ultra socialists and fanatics.

  • KernowGB  |  June 17 2012, 12:09PM

    @H_Trevorrow (re Saturday, June 16 2012, 10:53PM) Are you able to explain any of that pointless rhetoric and justify what each component means or how it expresses anything other than a profound display of ignorance? Do you agree that there is no such thing as Democracy without Transparency, and that Transparency means being open and truthful? The absence of 'Transparency' is something that has particular relevance, and sinister meaning to our 'Cornish' Duchy. Any ideas as to what consequences, or your part in it? What significance do you see in the following comparisons? Territory - England.... Adjective - English... Language - English....Flag = St George's Cross Territory - Cornwall... Adjective - Cornish... Language - Cornish...Flag = Baner Peran Territory - Wales...... Adjective - Welsh..... Language - Welsh.....Flag = Y Ddraig Goch Territory - Scotland... Adjective - Scottish...Language - Scottish...Flag = St Andrew's Cross Territory - Ireland..... Adjective - Irish.......Language - Irish.......Flag = Bratach na hÉireann Duchy of Cornwall = Quasi-sovereign territory : Head of State = Duke of Cornwall Kingdom = Sovereign territory : Head of State = The Monarch 'English county of Cornwall'. = illegal de facto status

  • everywhere  |  June 26 2012, 12:41PM

    tylertoby says the only flag flown over cornwall was the jolly rodger!...I think he means skull and cossbone...well it was never flown over cornwall,neither was it flown from pirate ships!!!...the jolly rodger was in fact a red flag!!!....

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