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“Pandering to the ‘Different’.”

By CallingtonFox Posted: February 12, 2013

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  • CallingtonFox  |  February 12 2013, 12:18AM

    The history of our country (England) is long and varied; all over it, we have Counties, regions, cities, towns and villages with individual histories and 'personalities'. All this goes into a shared history, a shared culture and, largely, a shared sense of belonging. But what happens when one group of people ask for special recognition, as has happened via this report http://tinyurl.com/3jzuhb3 This is where unravelling begins; is it what you want? Is this 'report' about recognition or pandering to the 'Different'? Is this an attempt at political correctness that will have no radical impact on our country, county or lives? Or is this the proverbial tip of the iceberg? Where do you think it will all lead?

  • Carvath  |  February 12 2013, 12:49AM

    It's an excellent report and the Executive Summary says all that's needed to make a judgement on its purpose. Long overdue IMO. It has been put together by Cornish experts and is signed by top representatives of the whole political spectrum. Democracy at its fullest and finest.

  • polgooth  |  February 12 2013, 8:31AM

    A helpful cross party report which objectively highlights many of the points aired on this forum and a more general sense of why the Cornish genuinely feel different. Thin end of the wedge ? I don't think so.....I see it as a step in the right direction in providing Cornwall, its people and culture the recognition it deserves within the UK and the wider world. Independence..... for some this might be the ultimate aim, but for many who are branded as nationalists actually official recognition, support of the language and culture, a devolved Parliament and opportunity to compete separately in sporting fora is probably a better fit to our aspirations and hopes for a separate Kernow within the structure of the UK. Brgds.

  • Chopper8  |  February 12 2013, 9:13AM

    What C Fox can't seem to get his head around is the fact that many Cornish people aren't 'Nationalists' but just want to be seen for what they are - Cornish Nationals. Still' he seems to think that it would be so much better for all concerned if we all just stopped going along with this silly delusion and forget all our history and culture that and jumped into line as good little Englishmen - trouble is ,we're not. The ultimate irony is that when we object to Anglo coercion to wear this label - ''You'll be what we tell you to be - or else!'' - WE are the ones they try and brand as racists!!! We are the 'Nasty Nats' Oh, the irony, so obvious to anyone with an ounce of reasoning. But then, reason is a rare visitor to this place. Far easier for those keyboard warriors who feel so threatened by growing Cornish awareness to froth and foam at their spittle flecked screens and jump up and down screaming ''racist'' or ''Nasty Nat'' at anyone who dares to have the temerity to stick their head above the parapet and identify themselves as - ugh,''Cornish''...

  • poldice  |  February 12 2013, 9:22AM

    Diversity and multiculturalism is government policy if its good enough for Asians not to integrate fully into their adopted country well its jolly well good enough for the Cornish to opt out of something we do not feel part of or indeed do not wish to belong to. First the English system tried ignoring us, it didnt work, now they are laughing at us which isnt working either, what will they do next, put us under martial law and lock us all up? The realisation is dawning in Westminster that this is a very serious issue, the Scottish issue has really got them worried, Englands absolute dominance of the British Isles is losing its grip on power as the other British Nations assert themselves being weary of continual English political failures that have brought the British Isles to the brink of ruin. Asserting Cornish differences will be good business more particularly given the rise of Cornwalls ever stronger brand and increasingly strong underlying economic fundamentals based of what Cornwall does best which incidentally does not include covering our glorious countryside with mass housing in a mad Westminster imposed dash for growth at any cost. In the final analysis the English Westminster Government have brought this impending collapse on its self, the political system is a corrupt self seeking failure that has pandered to banking and corpratism which are even more corrupt, we are bogged down in unwinnable wars and there is racial tension due to uncontrolled inward migration of people who are a burden rather than an asset. The simple bottom line being that I and thousands like me do not wish to belong, never have belonged and never ever will belong to England because we are Cornish, the English are the sole architects of their own downfall which dictates that a unique window of opportunity is opening for Cornwall as a British Nation whether the English like it or not. Kernow Bys Vyken.

  • youngcornwall  |  February 12 2013, 9:31AM

    "Pandering to the 'Different'." Is there a difference, this is the real question? Any Tom Dick or Henrietta can come to Cornwall and claim to be Cornish, Cornwall as a county has its own different characteristics the same as any county in this country, if some think they are more Cornish than others good for them. The census was not conclusive and until there is a genuine census of opinion what the people of Cornwall want who are living in Cornwall at that particular time we will be going around in circles on this topic forever.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 12 2013, 9:33AM

    Chopper8. you can identify yourself as whatever you like, I have never suggested otherwise. All I have done is question how people have arrived at their conclusions and beliefs. I have also never suggested you are racist, as it happens you give me the impression that you are far from it. But some 'nationalists' are racist and display their credentials on this forum and elsewhere online. I make no apologies about asking questions and debating or making my points. You seem to think I am closed minded, just because I have not agreed with much of what Cornish nationalism is and how it came about. If you do not believe me, that I have and continue to, look for the truth, then I am sorry but you are judging me wrongly. Go back and read all my posts.

  • Big_Ger  |  February 12 2013, 9:46AM

    What Chopper can't seem to get his head around is the fact that by far the majority of good honest Cornish people aren't 'Nationalists' but just want to be seen for what they are - Cornish and English. They do not want independence, an Assembly, and for Cornwall to be seen as anything other than an English county, with its own history and traditions. We can celebrate our Cornishness, without subscribing to the dreams of the nationalists, we can learn the language if we wish, attend and join in the festivals, and cook our own pasties. But we do not want what the nationalists want. Here's a plan, why don't you form a Cornish nationalist political party? Then if as Poldice says; the "thousands like him" can vote for what the nationalists desire. Once you have six Cornish nationalist MPs in Westminster, then a strong case can be made for what you want. You should try it. Oh, hang about, you did, and 275,000 voters in the county voted against you, and 5000 voted with you. Only 1.8% of voters in the county wanted what you want. Can you not take a hint? Why not try occupying one of the smaller Scilly Isles. Actually, you could probably all fit on St Michael's mount.

  • youngcornwall  |  February 12 2013, 10:12AM

    "we can learn the language if we wish, attend and join in the festivals, and cook our own pasties. But we do not want what the nationalists want." And vote for the only Cornish political party "if we wish" but some nats are putting pay to that. "But we do not want what the nationalists want."

  • Taxman100  |  February 12 2013, 10:25AM

    BG. I agree. Most people living in the County are neither Cornish Nationalists or Cornish Nationals. They, like myself, consider themselves to be Cornish and English; which contrary to the belief of some is perfectly acceptable. Some also claim their political following has increased significantly because more people than ever entered 'Cornish' on their census form. I did, and I do not support the Nationalist movement, politically. poldice suggests that an independent Cornwall would not continue to build houses. Where then would the ever increasing population live? Or, have the Nationalists other ideas - such as ethnic cleansing? He also mentions 'the Cornish Brand' - what exactly is that, and on what does it depend? He should also remember Cornwall's economy, and therefore jobs, are highly dependent upon the public sector and tourism. One example of what would happen on independence would be the closure of RNAS Culdrose; which is no longer strategically important, but is retained for the benefit of Cornwall. Would tourist numbers from the remainder of the UK increase or decrease? (would there be a backlash). It is also noted visitor numbers from the near Continent have also fallen - but perhaps that is because 'Visit Cornwall' removed all traces of 'England' from its website - including one place they should not have removed it from if they had wanted to retain access to the European market via the search engines!

  • Big_Ger  |  February 12 2013, 10:45AM

    Mebyon Kernow- The Party for Cornwall (MK; Cornish for Sons of Cornwall) is a left-of-centre political party in Cornwall, United Kingdom. It currently has six elected councillors in Cornwall Council and 27 town and parish councillors. Dick Cole is the current leader. MK was founded as a pressure group on 6 January 1951 at a meeting held at the Oates Temperance Hotel. 62 years in existence, and 6 local councillors, is the true level of support for Cornish nationalism. The more wacky fringe dwellers, lie our friend Angof, could count their supporters on the fingers of one foot. If the sensible and reasonable Cornish nationalists, such as Paddy Trembath, Pologooth, and Poldice, want to see why their movement is held as a laughing stock at best, and seriously demented at worse, they only have to look to Angof's horrific spamming here. Do you seriously want your cause represented so?

  • Carvath  |  February 12 2013, 12:00PM

    They're terrified of anything but bland uniformity. Taxman look at Wales for your answers on tourism and military bases.

  • youngcornwall  |  February 12 2013, 12:08PM

    by Big_Ger "If the sensible and reasonable Cornish nationalists, such as Paddy Trembath, Pologooth, and Poldice, want to see why their movement is held as a laughing stock at best," Don't be fooled B_G. Surely you are not suggesting this is the best that the Cornish Nationalists "movement" has to offer throughout the whole of Cornwall are you? Surely not, heaven forbid, and PT being a moderator on c24 as well, bit of a contradiction to say the least.

  • polgooth  |  February 12 2013, 12:20PM

    Getting back to the initial thread focus and the production of the Minorities Report. I take your point BG about extreme Nationalist elements but the same can be said of any organisation, political party or interest group. In a western democracy they do and should exist. Which is why for the me the Report is of interest as it is not a fringe document at all. In my view, it is well written, objective, supported by all political parties and frames the debate in the middle ground. As you rightly say MK have failed to make significant political inroads for a raft of reasons, inadequate funding, poor leadership and communication being just a few. That said, I have many friends who would not consider voting MK but if asked if they want greater recognition of Cornwall, heightened support for the language and culture, a devolved Parliament and sporting recognition say yes. For me, the report does not make me laugh, or encourage demented behavior, far from it, it is a serious attempt to mainstream the narrative and provide a sensible platform for what I hope will be a more informed and objective debate about the future of Cornwall and the UK - exactly what some on this forum have been calling for, for some time. Brgds.

  • Taxman100  |  February 12 2013, 1:16PM

    Carvath. I do not follow you comment about Wales. Wales is much as it has always been, and when I last looked it remained, and will probably remain, part of the UK. You also know Wales is very, very much dependant upon the public sector, and you will have noted the largest current backlash in Wales has been that against the cost of Council's being required, at considerable cost, to prepare all documents in both languages, English & Welsh. To be honest Cornish Nationalism doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is English Nationalism, and I do not mean organisations like the British/English National Party etc. I mean apolitical Nationalism, where the English seek to separate themselves from others within the Union. There have already been signs of this happening; most notably in London and the South East. They note, the English GDP would place England between 10th/12th in the international table enabling it to remain within the G20. Moreover, much of the capital which currently finds its way to the UK's extremities is controlled from within that central area. Should that ever happen, and I sincerely hope it does not, then there is little doubt Cornish tourism and Cornwall in general (if Cornwall were not to remain part of England) would suffer significantly on all fronts.

  • Gurnards_Head  |  February 12 2013, 1:52PM

    I think that Taxman is saying that the English nationalists want to separate because they in the South East would control the majority of the assets... now thats a plan, let them cut loose with all the money... the anglophiles would hopefully migrate (BACK?) to the SE and Cornwall would be left to its own devices with plenty of cheaper houses available due to falling demand, Cornwall suffer? maybe maybe not it would sort out the dross but the enterprising and resourceful will always get by... whatever happens there are chages afoot because nothing can continue as it is at present.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 12 2013, 2:05PM

    The first thing to say about this national/racial minority legal protection is that it has been corrupted from it's original purpose by the political elite. It was concieved after the civil war in the former Yugoslavia in order to maintain peace and his since been jumped on by every fringe power junkie in europe. The second thing to say is that even if we were included under it's protections there is nothing in the legislation which delivers greater autonomy or self rule. Plenty of regions have this ''protection'' and remain politically adminstered exactly as before. Thirdly it would produce not one single advantage in real terms to ordinary people in thier day to day life. If you read the convention you quickly realise how ridiculously unneccessary it would be for Cornwall. ie no one is discriminated against on the grounds of being from Cornwall. The supporteters of inclusion for Cornwall under the convention have searched high and low for discrimination and thier examples are truly laughable. Given the real problems faced by this region it is worrying that senior political figures have wasted time and money on such a worthless project. If anyone noticed this morning Nick Clegg confirmed the goverments position on regionalised government which has been kicked into the long grass. The whole idea has now gone, after its failure to attract support in the northeast, in favour of creating city centric funding /growth initiatives. Bad news for the miniscule number of nationalists as they not only lack support they now lack the vehicle in which to transport thier idea.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 12 2013, 2:36PM

    GH you outline how alarmingly nieve nationalist's are. You have just outlined the case for Cornwall to DECLINE......This is cutting off your nose to spite your face. In short if incomers to Cornwall did leave they would take wealth jobs and talent with them . The attaction for our skilled and usefull working population would be to move with /to the money...which would no longer be in Cornwall. Largely those staying would be those with no ambition , the feckless and useless and decrepit. This is so obviously the central reason your vain project of self rule fails....it is so bankrupt of being able to provide a prosperous future for the people who want to improve thier lot for themselves and thier children.

  • Taxman100  |  February 12 2013, 3:22PM

    H-Trevorrow. I agree. It does appear Gunnard's_Head supports, or would support, ethnic cleansing. His comments may also suggest that even at the present time those people who were not born in the County are unwelcome. I wonder what makes him, and others like him, believe they have the support of the people living in the County, whether Cornish or not? Personally, those who make such comments make me feel ashamed to be a Cornishman!

  • MapSerpren  |  February 12 2013, 4:31PM

    I fully supported the report submission. Indeed, I know many of those who participated in it's compilation from across the political spectrum. I would also regard myself as Cornish first and foremost and most certainly not English. Interestingly, I also submitted for blood tests to the people from Oxford Uni. when they came to Redruth. There is no 'English' in me. My closest genetic relatives to whom I am identical genetically are some people who participated in Wales. We had a most fascinating report back from the geneticists. Of course, history will show the English came here far, far later but I do know of many English people who feel that we are mature enough here to run our own affairs. Many of them are in political parties, many not. I sit on several Committees and Working Groups. There is a growing sense of difference which I applaud. We need to make Cornwall better. Inclusive yes, and as I have said, as in Scotland, the most outspoken are often incomers who agree with our softer approach but who are more vocal. The Chief Exec. of the SNP is English, after all! Younger people do not identify with England and why should they? The PLASC returns show that. They are disconnected from its political system and they see things differently. They are not alone as the Westminster system of government falls into disrepute, rocked by scandal after scandal. That is why a Cornish Youth Assembly will be on its way in the not too distant future in order to engage them. I have been lucky enough to engage in conversation with many politicians of all parties. Times are changing and we even have fairly prominent Conservatives who have opinions which lean towards greater self rule for Cornwall. Certainly even one of the UKIP MEPs has views that way and we all know how extreme UKIP can be! I am proud to be a Cornishman. I welcome anyone else who wishes to be. I think people who mention ethnic cleansing on this rather amusing little forum really need to get a grasp on reality. It is impossible to be ashamed to be Cornish and to say as much is downright wrong. I don't post here very often because it is rather a waste of effort. In that I am not alone. That said, the hilarity generated by this ill administered forum has caused much amusement when I have bothered to tell others about it. Whilst a few bicker here, many, many more are quietly working away to fashion a Cornwall mentioned in the Cornwall Council submission. It will surely happen. And no amount of hot air here will stop it. We are talented, gifted people - I have personal dealings with many business people and politicians who share my views. We must be bold and call for power to act for Cornwall as we look less and less to London to sort out our problems. They haven't done a very good job thus far, have they? We think we can do better! And we shall!

  • MapSerpren  |  February 12 2013, 4:40PM

    As a postscript, it is highly amusing to see one of those who signed the report used to express fears comparing the UK to Yugoslavia. That was five and more years ago. My, how her views have changed! Now she is as enthusiastic as her colleagues about governance here, right here in Cornwall. 'Balkanisation' (which lets face it, now works after terrible bloodshed because the then central leadership would not let go - look as the Czech and Slovak Republics for a successful 'velvet' divorce) to a request for devolved home rule in under five years. What a political leap she made! We just don't need telling from several hundred miles up the road anymore. Even fairly hard nosed Conservatives like George realise that now.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 12 2013, 5:10PM

    MK 's attrocious polling results prove thier is no popular support for whatever it is mapsperem is advocating. The mainstream of the public are fully engaged with the national political system. Now there is simply no money for vain glorious talking shops....our ua is being dismantled to its bare bones year on year. Mapsperem himself has just shown what his ideas consist of ...not one single coherent achievable blueprint for advancing the county....just hot air and pretty words.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 12 2013, 5:25PM

    One of the only upsides of austerity is that political froth such as this council doc will be first on the list of cuts. The next step up will be the exposure of those career politicians who waste tax payers money on worthless projects which can very easily be seen to enhance only one group of people namely the politicians themselves. The truth is that none of those elected stood on a platform of devoloution, except mk who are largely rejcted and whose councillors generally have salami slices of a majority in any case.{worth noting that even mk play down devoloution as they know its anathema to the public and choose to talk on other isssues far more}

  • Carvath  |  February 12 2013, 5:29PM

    What "blueprints" do you have then "H_Trevorrow"? Nothing cultural or educational I hope as you can't even spell the guy's name correctly: it's 'Serpren', that's Kernewek for carpenter. I'd be very interested in hearing 'your way forward for Cornwall'.

  • Carvath  |  February 12 2013, 5:31PM

    Incidentally, "H_Trevorrow", the document goes considerably wider than MK: all the main political parties in the UA.

  • Slimslad  |  February 12 2013, 5:43PM

    don't post here very often because it is rather a waste of effort. In that I am not alone. That said, the hilarity generated by this ill administered forum has caused much amusement when I have bothered to tell others about it. "Ill-administered forum"? With the majority of posts from "Angof12"? It makes one want to rip up some documents and not eat pasties for a week!

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 12 2013, 5:53PM

    "Of course, history will show the English came here far, far later" The 'English are a mixture of the same people you are. The Oxford tests came with a very strong caveat which you seem to ignore and which I will quote again for you: "However Dr Bruce Winney of Oxford's Department of Oncology, a member of the research team cautions: "that these genetic differences that the project has found across the British Isles are small. We are far more genetically alike than we are different, he says". So, there you have it, we are far more genetically alike than we are different. Even the basis of the people who settled these islands is coming under question by academics, in other words it is becoming clearer that who we think our ancestors were is a far more complicated matter than was thought before. Regarding the report, I presume that at least it will bring things to a head once and for all. In the mean time some people are claiming a fait accompli, it is not, it is far from it. Even the idea of what is wanted from 'recognition' varies greatly. Then we have the fact of this being a 'minority report,' yet some of this 'minority' want (and claim it already is) Cornwall as their country, what happened to democracy and the wants of the majority? It is pointless trying to deny somebody calling themselves any nationality they wish, it is their choice. But the impact of that choice is where things are a long way from being settled.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 12 2013, 6:17PM

    Carvath you are funny. Because it's such a worthless project it dos'nt matter who agreed it... it's useless. Only a clutch of rampart nats have a clue what this is about. The point you miss is that it is not endorsed by the people....it's just a crass example to typify the mis dealings at county hall and how out of touch cllrs are with the electorate.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 12 2013, 6:21PM

    ....of course i could be wrong and cllrs of all colours could have mountains of letters from thier constituents asking....''how goes our appeal to be a national minority???? Any news??''.....somehow i think not LOL.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 12 2013, 6:51PM

    My big idea for moving the county forward is to get rid of all these petty beuracrats and thier entourage of hangers-on at county hall who waste time and money on creating thier own feather bedded dinisty in the form of an assembly and concentrate on actully creating wealth and getting our services funded.......in the acknowledgements of this puny non entity of a document , full of flowery promise, are all the usual suspects...... The document also shines a light on the close relations enjoyed by a few who time and again get the plumpest job or the lions share of public handouts.......fortunately the seperatist deviance, which some would call croneism straying into corruption, is becoming ever more obvious. I'd say its only a matter of time before a few of the dots are joined up and the whole bent facade of cornish seperatism feels the full force of public scrutiny and dissatisfaction. :]

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 12 2013, 7:48PM

    In the acknowledgements of this doc is one Paul Masters...... i'm going to suggest this is the same Paul Masters who has just been given the job of ceo of the council. Croneism ???? Another on the list of acknowledgements scored a major subsidy during the summer in a community performance event heavily influenced by council. More croneism??? Not a crime exactly. Taken individually this would be circumstantial coincidence but how many of these happy accidents of fortune does it take before the public and media decide that there is something very rotten occuring.

  • MapSerpren  |  February 12 2013, 8:14PM

    How very wrong many of you are. But unlike some, I don't bother with internet troll wars. I and many, many others just get on with it - onen hag oll!

  • Carvath  |  February 12 2013, 9:24PM

    "H_Trevorrow", you didn't even apologise for getting the guy's name wrong. What you've said is absolutely meaningless. So you don't have any blueprint, model or even a clue after 4 posts in a row: I'm surprised you weren't time out!

  • ThomasFlamank  |  February 12 2013, 9:58PM

    Nothing against being English. I have many as friends. I just aren't!

  • ThomasFlamank  |  February 12 2013, 10:04PM

    My neighbours are called Trevorrow. Could you be related? Your views would never be their's incidentally!

  • ThomasFlamank  |  February 12 2013, 10:31PM

    Paul Masters is a true Cornishman. For someone to criticise in the way a poster does above reflects only only that poster's ill informed opinion. The new CEO is Cornish, proudly professes as much and has a lifetime of local government service to his name.

  • Gurnards_Head  |  February 13 2013, 1:03AM

    For something that doesnt matter you are engaging in much huffing and puffing trevorrow boy. After a couple of spectacular failures the selection of Cornishman Paul Masters as the Chief Beef at the Kremlin is a positive step in the right direction, so much better than the vacuous babe called Sheila Healey who could not stand the heat and bolted from the kitchen with 500k of our money thanks to Councillor Whalleys weakness. Then came way aye bonny lad the gimlet eyed Geordie who was a bit more of a stayer but still more interested in another notch in his C/V before finally throwing his toys out of the pram when his latest privatisation wheeze was rumbled, the question being is Wellington NZ far enough? and does his imminent departure rank as ethnic cleansing among the huffing puffing trolls in this unpleasant backwater of cyberspace? While these serial executive disasters have been unfolding Paul Masters has been quietly cutting his teeth in the background gaining valuable experience while waiting in the wings to serve Cornwall in a way no self seeking blow in could ever aspire to Daily the case for Cornwall having a future that is not English gathers strength and stature because English rule has failed us all and will continue to fail while the cancer of corruption continually rots its core. Kernow Bys Vyken.

  • Tstrunk  |  February 13 2013, 9:40AM

    With regard to Pual Master hopefully he will be backing all the people. And it seems they have already got the message up at them big offices. After delivering that draconian payrise for themselves back in October they have as of yesterday voted to do a u turn on it, bingo. And to think so many of them turned out to vote on this way back in October and yet when it came to something very serious that had great effect on the poor of Cornwall so few bothered to show and then defended their lack of committement when confronted by this question by making out it was down to payment and such, that sucks!

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 13 2013, 5:14PM

    GH ''The cancer of corruption'' seems to be rotting at the core of seperatist politics. Even without any self rule the amount of toadyism, back scratching, jobs for the boys is at chronic levels. It seems the more power seperatist gain, having already bypassed the electorate or democracy , The worse the scandal becomes. Like i said even the most pro seperatist party, mk, try to hide this facet of policy but for the others who are still hiding thier true nature in the closet and decieving thier electorate a day of reckoning is well overdue.

  • Carvath  |  February 13 2013, 5:53PM

    H_T there are no separatist politicians of any standing in Cornwall. MK is not a separatist party. You mistake local government increased powers as separatist: any devolution is well and truly still in the UK. Coming back to the document, it was signed off by all the major political parties including the staunchest of unionists.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 13 2013, 6:20PM

    "The ONLY indigenous people are the Welsh and Cornish." I thought I would share this little gem from another site. He also discourses on how different the Cornish are to everyone else. If one has to resort to re-writing the whole of our history and ancestral heritage, as this person is doing, then we are on a very dangerous path indeed. It is something many others have tried in the past and it brings nothing but disaster. Only the truth will move us all forward and allow us to flourish.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 13 2013, 6:41PM

    the cornish minority report is a step toward protection under the convention for national minorities ...the below is a guide to that doc and you can estimate for yourself how utterly inappropriate and uneccassry this is for us....and the mass of uneccessary resource it could take.....and how it is largely covered by present law any way... encourage tolerance, mutual respect, and understanding among all persons living on their territory (Article 6) · protect the rights to freedom of assembly, association, expression, thought, conscience, and religion (Articles 7, 8, and 9) · facilitate access to mainstream media and promote the creation and use of minority media (Article 9) · recognize the right to use a minority language in private and in public and display information in the minority language (Articles 10 and 11) · recognize officially surnames and first names in the minority language (Article 11) · "endeavour to ensure" the right to use the minority language before administrative authorities and to display bilingual topographical indications in the minority language in areas inhabited by national minorities "traditionally" or "in substantial numbers" (Articles 10 and 11) · foster knowledge of the culture, history, language, and religion of both majority and minorities (Article 12) · recognize the rights of minorities to set up and manage their own educational establishments and learn their own language (Articles 13 and 14) · "endeavour to ensure" that there are adequate opportunities to be taught in the minority language, in areas traditionally inhabited by national minorities or where they live in "substantial numbers" (Article 14) · "create the conditions necessary for the effective participation of persons belonging to national minorities in cultural, social and economic life, and in public affairs, in particular those affecting them" (Article 15) · refrain from measures that alter the proportions of the population in areas inhabited by minorities (Article 16) · not interfere with the rights to maintain contacts across frontiers and participate in the activities of national and international NGOs (Article 17) Like i said it applies well to war torn Bosnia/Serbia but perhaps carvath can explain why we need it???

  • Carvath  |  February 13 2013, 7:01PM

    The points sound relevant for anywhere like a set of "commandments". If a little more attention was paid to these points in say Serbia, Bosnia, etc that you mention, some of which I know first hand, then the wars would not have occurred in the first place. Though of course that is an extreme example. In Cornwall, strides are being made now regarding our language, etc.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 13 2013, 7:23PM

    i accpet your surrender as you demonstrate not being able justify your position.... {exit stage left carvath in a state of embarrased humility }

  • Carvath  |  February 13 2013, 7:43PM

    Eh? The points are relevant for anywhere, I don't know how anybody could deny them. All minorities should have been treated in those ways and the world would have and will be a happier place. Once again, great strides are being made already in Cornwall on the language and general cultural front - I'm looking forward to an acceleration of these aspects. The document signed off by the leaders of all political parties indicates how these things would be beneficial to Cornwall. The document was prepared by Cornwall's most experienced administrators and academics. There's no-one left for you to argue with! Now H_T what is wrong with that?

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 14 2013, 1:55AM

    Are we happy that this calling for a national recognition is based on solid facts both current and historical or do you think the opposite? Discuss.

  • Carvath  |  February 14 2013, 8:00AM

    Academics, historians, official administrators and the full spectrum of political party leaders and representatives are involved with the document, some from within the Duchy and some from outside. The document is well-referenced. It's well-summarised and to the point and could have, if required, been 10 times longer. My only criticism is the last point but I haven't seen the TOR for completing the document so assume it was more than adequate.

  • Chopper8  |  February 14 2013, 8:27AM

    by CallingtonFoxWednesday, February 13 2013, 6:20PM ""The ONLY indigenous people are the Welsh and Cornish." I thought I would share this little gem from another site. He also discourses on how different the Cornish are to everyone else. If one has to resort to re-writing the whole of our history and ancestral heritage, as this person is doing, then we are on a very dangerous path indeed. It is something many others have tried in the past and it brings nothing but disaster. Only the truth will move us all forward and allow us to flourish." Come on C.Fox, don't be shy, why not post the rest of that to put it in some sort of context;- ''The ONLY indigenous people are the Welsh and Cornish. We displaced no-one, slaughtered no one, stole land from no one, unlike all who came after. Tell me where I've said we're better. We're not. Different, yes. I support devolution for all who want it. Even areas of England which would be a whole lot better off without London 'You're still trying to twist my words into a Cornish v English thing.'' Looks a bit different now to your attempted ''racial superiority'' slur doesn't it? Ah, selective quoting of the bits that suit your agenda - bit of a specialist subject of yours,eh? Here's a bit more, same poster,from the site that you claimed that you'd never heard of or visited;- ''England...first written mention (as Englaland) 890 AD. Named from immigrant settlers from Angeln, Germany, these being lumped together with another German immigrant group from Saxony. Language, a Germanic one, very akin to modern Frisian Cornwall (Kernow) first written mention c.400 AD. Half a millenium earlier, and probably a good deal older than that. Native people mostly descended from the first re-settlers of an empty Britain after the last Ice Age, c.11,000 BC and originating from Atlantic Europe (as confirmed by the recent Oxford Univ.- Wellcome Trust genetic survey of Britain). Language, from c.3000 BC onwards: a Celtic one, which also originated in Atlantic Europe. Different people. Different origins. Different languages. Different cultures. Different histories. Not something to be derided or airbrushed away, but something to be celebrated and encouraged, as diversity brings dynamism to society. ****genising peoples produces automatons. '' Nothing like a bit of context eh? Not that anything shown anywhere will ever change the closed and bigoted minds of you or your fellow English supremacists that infest this place. Back to the grind, I'll leave this ''home for the terminally bewildered'' to those with less profitable ways to pass their waking hours.

  • Big_Ger  |  February 14 2013, 8:42AM

    A brief but accurate answer to this would be "very roughly 1500 years ago, give or take a century or so, on the Eastern side of the island of Great Britain — in what we now call the East and South-East of England (but nobody called it 'England' then)". Perhaps this is too vague for you — you would like a date? As a respectable academic, I ought to say this is as precise as we can be. But if you press me — all right, then: in a symbolic sense, at any rate, perhaps we might say that English began in A.D. 449, at a place called Ebbsfleet on Pegwell Bay, near Ramsgate in Kent. http://tinyurl.com/cbr4k3e The earliest known evidence of human presence in the area now known as England was that of **** antecessor, dating to approximately 780,000 years ago. http://tinyurl.com/jqhqo

  • MapSerpren  |  February 14 2013, 9:21AM

    Are these not the words of that great Cornishman, historian and prolific author, Cornish speaker and much else besides, Craig Weatherhill, Chopper? His book 'Cornnovia' sits proudly on my bookshelf alongside that of Dr. Alan Kent's 'Celtic Cornwall'. Dr. Alan another great Cornishman whose latest play look set to fill the Minack Theatre this Summer by all accounts as well as the Hall for Cornwall. Craig is a personal friend of mine. I attended one of his talks in Penzance a while back. Truly fascinating.

  • Carvath  |  February 14 2013, 10:45AM

    Indeed, Craig weatherhill writes excellent books: Cornovia is superb and his books on the Cornish language and in particular place names are top notch.

  • Big_Ger  |  February 14 2013, 11:18AM

    Indeed they are, I use both Belerion and Cornovia, when rambling or coast path walking in West Penwith and other areas, valuable resources. My copies are getting doge eared though, I've had them for some time (10 yrs plus,) have they been reprinted?

  • ThomasFlamank  |  February 14 2013, 1:09PM

    They have Big_Ger. I obtained my copy from Amazon. If being Cornish makes me 'different' then so be it. I am happy to be different and as a long time tax payer, I am entitled to have 'being different' catered for.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 14 2013, 1:23PM

    "Looks a bit different now to your attempted ''racial superiority'' slur doesn't it? Ah, selective quoting of the bits that suit your agenda - bit of a specialist subject of yours,eh?" What the hell are you on about?! It doesn't take a genius to know anyone could look that quote up so I was hardly trying to hide anything for petes sake! I quoted that bit because it illustrates the desire and actions of some to re-write history. The rest of your quoted post is exactly where many of these nationalist problems stem from and apart from being selective and out of context to any original historical setting are just plain historical re-write. The Cornish' were NOT the first people to live here, for a start; they were the result of settlers who displaced/absorbed the indigenous population; Even the beloved of nationalists, Philip Payton, acknowledges that fact (Incidentally I don't think he backs up the nationalist cause as much as some would like to think). As for 'racial superiority' well, Chopper8, I hate to point out to you, once again, that many of your fellow nationalists do indeed use just that idea to hang their claims on along with being 'Celtic', which is another attempt, to re-write anthropological history.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 14 2013, 3:32PM

    Protecting what is largely a re-invented culture seems to me ludicrous non sense. It makes as much sense as legally recognising the romans or any number of long dead tribes. The issue here is not to protect a living thing but to create protection for a romantic re-invention of a culture begun only a couple of generations ago as an anthropological hobby. The purveyors of this madddness are engaged purely in asserting power to become bigger fish in thie own small pond as they cannot even define who is cornish.

  • Carvath  |  February 14 2013, 3:58PM

    I think anyone with half a brain would put their faith in the academics from far and wide, historians, top administrators and the broadest spectrum of politicians you could find who prepared and signed off the document rather than listen to the desperate-sounding attempted negators and faux deconstructors found on here.

  • Chopper8  |  February 14 2013, 4:02PM

    by CallingtonFoxThursday, February 14 2013, 1:23PM As for 'racial superiority' well, Chopper8, I hate to point out to you, once again, that many of your fellow nationalists do indeed use just that idea to hang their claims on along with being 'Celtic', which is another attempt, to re-write anthropological history." Wow, yet again so many sweeping statements and general assumptions from the latest English expert on all things Cornish. So much fail, where to start? Firstly, Mr Fox, I am not and never have been a ''Nationalist''. I know this might be a bit hard for you to comprehend as you seem to like nothing better than to arrive at ill judged and fully formed conclusions regardless of minor distractions like ''facts'', but just take it slowly, OK? I, like many here in our Duchy, am a Cornish National. Got that? I have no intention of separating Cornwall from the rest of the UK, burning out holiday homes or partaking in any other of the alleged acts that so many on here just love to ascribe to the ''Nasty Nats'' and by dint of association tar all Cornish - whether Nationals or Nationalists - with the same broad brush. ''Racial superiority'''? From the Cornish? LOL!!! I appreciate that you're a recent arrival to our Duchy, but if you'd only had to put up with a fraction of the racial abuse and discrimination that many Cornish people endure then you might have a better understanding of the term. As for the term ''Celtic'' - well, YOU don't like it - tough! Fortunately, for the vast majority of open minded people the term is well understood in modern parlance. You claim to be English. Why do you define yourself as such? Surely ''British'' would be a less ''divisive'' (by your definition) term? But no, your English, no problem for me. I don't see or hear anyone denying your existence or claim to nationhood, why are you so keen to deny me mine? Just who is being racist here? As has already been said, not better - just different. Why can't you celebrate the diversity of these islands?

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 14 2013, 4:51PM

    Chopper8, I am sure you are not one of the extreme nationalists, good for you. I was not actually singling you out, but your position is a case in point regarding what some people in Cornwall want to be accepted as; there are too many variations. And, again, yes, there is a case of racial superiority being banded about by some, note the word, some, maybe not you, good; I do not care who uses racial superiority to bolster claims, it is wrong and dangerous, clear? I am not trying to deny you being 'Cornish', I am trying to point out the deep flaws within much of what that means, maybe not to you, but to many others, clear? Maybe you do not want a 'separate' Cornwall, but you surely can not deny that many on the nationalist side, (yes not national), do. Have you not read their posts on here and in other places? I also am arguing against that position. Regarding the term 'Celtic' well, I question its use because, whether you like it or not, it is not an established factual label for an actual race of people; so, when some, maybe not you, use this 'being Celtic' as a means to bolster their claims I will continue to cry foul, ok? If people want to make claims for a nation, a nationality and many, maybe not you, for a country, then I will argue against them if those claims are not based in fact. Now for me being British, yes I am, I am English and British, I have stated as much on this site too. I am also European and a member of the human race, just like you. I do love diversity that is another reason why I deplore nationalism when it starts to be used to call for separation, as some are, do you honestly deny that they are not? Have you been on their websites?

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 14 2013, 6:37PM

    Quote from chopper......''had to put up with a fraction of the racial abuse and discrimination that many Cornish people endure'' frankly the rest of Cornwall is laughing at that.....what utter fantasy. Carvath knows full well that his little document is only supported by a miniscule number of hard liner kernow nats nuts and even fewer self interested minor local part time cllrs...what a joke.

  • Chopper8  |  February 14 2013, 6:42PM

    by CallingtonFoxThursday, February 14 2013, 4:51PM Now for me being British, yes I am, I am English and British, I have stated as much on this site too. I am also European and a member of the human race, just like you. I do love diversity that is another reason why I deplore nationalism when it starts to be used to call for separation, as some are, do you honestly deny that they are not? Have you been on their websites?" Good. Now substitute 'English' for 'Cornish' in that first sentence and I'm of exactly the same mind. Why do you find it so hard accept that all of the above applies to Cornish people? What are you afraid of? Do you really think that if half a million Cornish people self identify as such that they're all going to grab the nearest pitchfork and march on London in a genocidal frenzy? Are we really perceived as such a threat? Purleeeeeease!!! You say that you aren't attempting to deny me identifying myself Cornish, yet on the other hand you seek to deny such a nationality exists? I can imagine you and others of your ilk having exactly the same conversation regarding Wales who - by your definition - were also 'English' after the 1535/42 annexation right up until the repeal of these Acts less than 20 years ago. In the words of the famous historian - well, he was Welsh so I expect you won't rate him too highly - A. O. H. Jarman ; "the privileges of citizenship were only given to the Welsh on condition that they forgot their own particular past and personality, denied their Welshness, and merged with England." This quote,IMHO, applies as equally to Cornwall now as it did to Wales then. As for ''their'' websites, what is this ''they'' and ''their'' of whom you speak? Nationalism and Nationalists come in many shades of differing opinion, your tendency to lump them all into one amorphous mass does you no credit and makes you look as blinkered and bigoted as the rest of the Trolls that lurk here, and yes, I have ''been on their websites'' and found a lot of anger and resentment, most of it justified IMO. But again, carry on selecting the bits that conform to your prejudice, oblivious of the fact that it's akin to claiming that the more extreme elements that post on the ''Cross of St George'' website represent the views of every Englishman. A little less of the 'crying wolf' wouldn't go amiss -try and get some sense of proportion, please!

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 14 2013, 7:43PM

    "Are we really perceived as such a threat?" No, not all, of course not, show me where I have said otherwise. Chopper8, you are misunderstanding my arguing against and or, questioning of, exactly what 'nationalism' means to individuals. Because it clearly means different things to different people am I wrong to ask questions and research etc, etc? I think you are reading into my posts more than is actually there. I am not lumping everyone into one 'amorphous mass,' I have made it quite clear that I know everyone is not singing from the same hymn sheet; it is this that those who wish to have a national identity are being blind to, along with any impacts their wants could have on us all. If you do not know who those who cite, race, 'being celtic,' wanting a separate country, being separate from Britain, etc to back up and enlarge upon, their desired aims are, then you must have your eyes and your mind shut. If what I post does not 'fit' you, then I am not aiming at you, am I? Try thinking along those lines.

  • Carvath  |  February 14 2013, 9:05PM

    A slight bit of backpeddling I see and not before time. CallingtonFox, I think you need to go back and re-read your posts. You will then, hopefully, understand how you come over to the vast majority of Cornish people. Also, while you're at it, read some of "H_Trevorrow's" and "Big_Ger's" posts and you will get a better insight into others posts which tend to be extreme to say the least. Obsessive might be a better description. For a "walk on the wild side" read Slimslad's or youngcornwall's contributions and truly wonder why Cornish people want devolution.

  • Big_Ger  |  February 14 2013, 9:15PM

    Cavath, can you tell me what you think is "extreme" about my views? Please quote where i have expressed and "extreme view, I bet you cannot! Is it the fact that I want to be known as Cornish and English? Sauce for the goose etc..

  • Carvath  |  February 14 2013, 9:29PM

    Sorry, I'm just recovering from split sides. You are a repetively obsessive poster, fortunately quite harmless. You cannot go a day unless you mention MK, something the rest of us can, oh and Bert Biscoe.

  • Big_Ger  |  February 14 2013, 9:37PM

    In other words you have no examples of my "extreme" views, or to put it bluntly, you are a liar. And they wonder why no one takes them seriously. Go on, give one example of my "extreme" views.

  • PaddyTrembath  |  February 14 2013, 10:11PM

    H_Trevorrow wrote:- ".......................they cannot even define who is cornish." Yes we can, it's you who is unable to understand it. Give me your definition of who is English, I dare you.

  • Big_Ger  |  February 14 2013, 10:33PM

    "English" refers to someone born in England (inclusive of Cornwall), or someone born outside of England to English parentage, who chooses to identify with England. Now, does "Cornish" refer to someone born in Cornwall, or someone born outside of Cornwall to Cornish parentage, who chooses to identify with Cornwall? Or do you have another definition for us Paddy? Or will you be, as ever, just too scared to give us a definition.

  • Carvath  |  February 14 2013, 11:02PM

    Here you go Big_Ger, thread of Jan 31st: 15 yes 15 or thereabouts of cut and paste extensive histories - extremely obsessive or obsessively extreme - and that took about 10 seconds to find.

  • Big_Ger  |  February 14 2013, 11:34PM

    So posting cut and pasted facts which disprove the nationalist view is; "extreme". What a joke! Can't face the truth eh?!?! Made my evening that has.

  • AnGarrack  |  February 14 2013, 11:46PM

    The English are the English, the Cornish are the Cornish. You can't be both. Anglo Cornish perhaps the same way as you can be Anglo Scots or Anglo Welsh. But what a pointless discussion. I wrote in my census what I was and that is Cornish. I am allowed to do that you see. But obsessive ol' Big_Ger and his cronies just don't get it do they? Born in Cornwall as were parents to way back when and even Big_Ger knows what it says on the old T shirt but in case not, here it is: http://tinyurl.com/beadfsw Yep, obsessive is a good word for 'em but they sure as anything won't change my views....which I am allowed to have....and write in on official forms. The English? Now what on earth makes someone one of them? Germans aren't they?

  • Big_Ger  |  February 15 2013, 8:35AM

    "Here you go Big_Ger, thread of Jan 31st: 15 yes 15 or thereabouts of cut and paste extensive histories." Oh, I know what discussion you are talking about. The one where Angof gave us that "timeline of Cornish history," the one I used to prove how inextricably linked Cornwall and England are. The time line which proves; the earls of Cornwall were English, that all the charters of Cornwall were granted by English kings, that the Cornish have always fought for the English army, that Cornwall is an English county, that Cornwall was given as a gift by an English king to an English prince as a present, etc. This one. http://tinyurl.com/ctwfafa You called me "extreme" and "obsessed" for leaving 15 messages in that discussion, here's something you may like to consider; you have left 14 messages in this discussion. (I have left 8.) Here's something else you may like to consider, (over the last five pages listing discussions,) of 101 discussions started, 76 of those discussions have been started by Cornish Nationalists about nationalist agendas, others have only started 25 discussions. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

  • Tolgus  |  February 15 2013, 8:51AM

    Fortunately for us, the vast majority of Cornish people welcome visitors to our beautiful region.

  • Carvath  |  February 15 2013, 9:15AM

    Counting like mad this morning B_G? I don't know about motes and beams but you seem to have a whole woodland. Out of 43 replies you had 15 whereas even Angof who started the thread could only manage 11. I would not expect so much from you on this thread; not so much to copy and paste around. Have a great week what with half-term and all that.

  • youngcornwall  |  February 15 2013, 9:22AM

    by Tolgus "Fortunately for us, the vast majority of Cornish people welcome visitors to our beautiful region." And the sentiment is returned I am sure when the Cornish go on their holidays, but their are some Cornish that openly admit they do not like visitors for all kinds of reasons, and have to be just content on going to Middlesex or wherever visiting relations, for those types it is probably envy more than anything, but on the whole as you say the majority are OK about it.

  • PaddyTrembath  |  February 15 2013, 10:24AM

    Big_Ger Thursday, February 14 2013, 10:33PM .""English" refers to someone born in England (inclusive of Cornwall), or someone born outside of England to English parentage, who chooses to identify with England. Now, does "Cornish" refer to someone born in Cornwall, or someone born outside of Cornwall to Cornish parentage, who chooses to identify with Cornwall? Or do you have another definition for us Paddy? Or will you be, as ever, just too scared to give us a definition." With the exception of your "(inclusive of Cornwall)" dig, your definition of English is perfectly acceptable. As is your offered definition of Cornish. The concept is the same. No-one I know would argue with such a definition, it is the one I use myself. However, unfortunately, there are those who wish to deny us, the Cornish, who will once given such a definition, come up with all kinds of situations which they think will disprove such a definition, but curiously enough, they seem to think that such situations do not have the same effect on the definition of English. H_Trevorrow, who raised the issue, is one of those who would do such a thing, it is why I asked him the question. There is no confusion over how to define the Cornish, only the "mud" stirred by those who wish to promote an English identity on all. I have never been too scared to give any opinion Big_Ger, and I take offence at the accusation. Try following the thread, instead of looking for something to find fault with.

  • Slimslad  |  February 15 2013, 2:05PM

    I have a British passport. I was born in Britain. I am British. As are all the folk in Cornwall in the same position. Born in Britain, you are British.

  • youngcornwall  |  February 15 2013, 4:58PM

    "Born in Britain, you are British." But which part of Britain, that is what counts, if you were born in a deprived part of Britain and stayed in that deprived environment the whole of your life, your outlook and perspective on life and the outside world is going to be somewhat inhibited, subsequently some could try to build an imaginary wall around themselves to compensate or comfort themselves, who knows.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 15 2013, 5:18PM

    Sorry but a petty long dead tribe dose'nt make Cornwall an entity outside England. Its only surprising that such halucinations exsist in what is assumed to be civilised society in the 21 st century. Notably those inflating these hallucinations are keen also to gain power. Any nobility of endeavour or integrity then becomes pure selfish ambition....for the few.

  • Chopper8  |  February 15 2013, 5:58PM

    by CallingtonFoxThursday, February 14 2013, 7:43PM ""Are we really perceived as such a threat?" No, not all, of course not, show me where I have said otherwise. Chopper8, you are misunderstanding my arguing against and or, questioning of, exactly what 'nationalism' means to individuals. Because it clearly means different things to different people.'' You have consistently railed against what you perceive to be the ''evils of nationalism'' on numerous posts so you don't have to search too hard. Yes, you're right, it clearly means different things to different people, that's my point - but you persist on labeling anyone who doesn't subscribe to your ''your all English coz I say so'' viewpoint as dangerous radicals when it's patently obvious that you're being disingenuous at best or - at worse - just plain Trolling. ''I have made it quite clear that I know everyone is not singing from the same hymn sheet; it is this that those who wish to have a national identity are being blind to, along with any impacts their wants could have on us all.'' No you haven't, for the reasons I've already outlined above and on previous posts. What ''impacts''? As I've already stated - and again, you've declined to answer - do you really think the Cornish are going to take up arms? I'm getting tired at your continual refusal to address any of the salient points made as you consistently choose to selectively answer and push your own all to obvious Anglophile agenda. For you to accuse me of having ''my eyes and my mind shut'' shows you either have a very finely developed sense of humour or that irony is completely lost on you. I know which option I'd plump for... I notice as that you've also neatly sidestepped my question about the historic Welsh situation being analogous with the current situation in Cornwall so I'll just repeat the late great A.O.H Jarman;- "the privileges of citizenship were only given to the Welsh on condition that they forgot their own particular past and personality, denied their Welshness, and merged with England." Isn't that exactly what you're asking - nay, demanding - the Cornish to do? I'll ask again and - bearing in mind the history of the Welsh nation - if you substitute ''Welshness'' with ''Cornishness'', which part of that statement is inaccurate?

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 15 2013, 7:38PM

    Chopper8, so, you think that all this calling for national recognition can, note the word, can, impact on society if taken to certain levels. One level being called for is total separation from England and or Britain; now, just what does that mean to those who live here? What conditions would this impose? Have you failed to notice that the very desire stated by yourself and Paddy Trembath, for example, of wanting to remain a part of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, makes you, in the eyes of some, note the word some, a non-Cornishman and, to boot, not welcome here. Is that enough for start, or do you really have no ability to think for yourself about all the ways this could, note the word, could, impact on all our lives? Why are you asking me about the Welsh? They do have a country and I have no desire to suggest otherwise; I hope they always remain a part of the Union because I love the diversity and have known many Welsh and, incidentally, Scottish and Irish people over the years who I am proud to have been in contact with and in knowing they are a part of the United Kingdom. When have I asked Cornish people to forget who they are? I have questioned the basis put forward for certain claims and make no apologies for it.

  • Big_Ger  |  February 15 2013, 9:05PM

    Carvath, the fact that you cannot see the intent, and fun, I was having with Angof in that discussion is neither my problem, nor a good reflection on your ability to comprehend. Par for the course then.

  • Chopper8  |  February 16 2013, 1:13PM

    Callington Fox, well what a surprise! I suppose expecting a straight answer to a straight question from you was far too much to hope for and so it sadly proves. More evasion, attempted obfuscation and a muddying of the waters as you yet again refuse to address the salient points, preferring once again to twist words and meanings to suit your agenda.'' ''One level being called for is total separation from England and or Britain '' Called for by whom? A tiny miniscule minority? ''One level'' being called for by many of your ilk is total withdrawal from Europe, something, incidentally, that you'll find the vast majority of Cornish Nationalists are dead against - not that you'd know - but how is that relevant to the specific points I asked you to address? As for 'some' making me a ''non-Cornishman'' and ''not welcome'' well, the only hostility I see here comes from English supremacists who'd seek to deny me of my right to self identify as Cornish not English - a body of opinion with which you demonstrably concur. ''Why are you asking me about the Welsh? They do have a country and I have no desire to suggest otherwise; I hope they always remain part of the Union because I love the diversity and have known many Welsh and, incidentally, Scottish and Irish people over the years who I am proud to have been in contact with and knowing they are a part of the United Kingdom.'' This is the real clincher. If, as you profess, you cannot or will not see the analogy between the Cornish and Welsh situations then I'm afraid that any further debate with you is utterly pointless, so I'll try one last time - more in hope than expectation. Given that Wales, for hundreds of years, was legally incorporated into England and that the standard reference book of the time, the 'Encyclopedia Britannica' had under it's entry for the Principality ''For Wales - see England'', do you or do you not accept that the Cornish situation now is identical to that of the Welsh? And do you accept that if you were 'debating' the Welsh situation back then you would be advancing exactly same line of argument that the English establishment of the day was advocating - namely that Wales was legally a part of England and therefore the ''Welsh'' were ''English'' by default? You seem more than happy accept the fact that Wales is a separate country, yet you, amongst others, and that self same establishment are trying the exact same tactic today on the the Cornish? You once again claim to ''love diversity'' whilst simultaneously trying to stifle it using the pretence that somehow to allow it would unleash all sorts of imaginary 'Nationalist'' demons. If you are happy for all the constituent parts of the Union -Scots, Welsh to be seen as peoples distinct from the English then why not the Cornish as well? But I believe you know this already Mr Fox, you come across as a reasonably educated man -unlike, sadly, many on here - and I can't believe that you are as stupid as you're making out. You understand perfectly well the point I'm making but giving a straight answer to a straight question is not your MO. The mask slipped a little with your description here; ''Scottish and Irish people over the years who I am proud to have been in contact with and in knowing they are a part of the United Kingdom.'' Irish people? Part of the UK? Which century are you living in Mr Fox? Ireland hasn't been a part of the UK for nigh on 100 years! Slight aberration perhaps? Wishful thinking? Or merely a nostalgic longing for the good old days when a third of the globe was coloured pink and we could all bask in the reflected glory of the greatest empire the world had ever seen. You do know that we've handed India back don't you? Oh,one last quote again. I've altered it slightly - see if you can spot where... 'the privileges of citizenship were only given to the Cornish on condition that they forgot their own particular past and personality, denied their Cornishness, and merged with England.''

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 16 2013, 3:27PM

    "do you or do you not accept that the Cornish situation now is identical to that of the Welsh?" No I do not; if I did I would see things differently. The Welsh 'becoming a part of England was the act of a Welsh monarch ascending the English throne. At the time what would I have thought about this? I have no idea, the world was different and what was accepted as 'right' was as well. With regards to 'denying the Cornish', all I am doing is to challenge the 'history,' which is being falsified (you do not accept that, fine, maybe one day you will, maybe not), but that is my position. I respect the wishes to be considered Cornish but I do not respect or accept it when I see history being re-written to give the wish credence. You see, Wales, Scotland and, ok, Northern Ireland (hoped you would have assumed I meant that, but it gave you a chance to 'find' something to pick at), are countries with genuine histories, no need to write it for them. So for ease of reference: 1) Cornwall is not a country, if it ever was, that changed over a millennia ago under circumstances that it is wrong to take out of their historical circumstances and attempt to change the meanings, ideals, intents and levels of acceptance, etc, etc, in order to make them fit a much newer cause. 2) Cornwall being part of England is factual and backed up by legal documents; the challenges to this are obvious attempts to, re-write history using various methods. If you do not accept that, fine, that is my position. 3) The usage of the Oxford University study regarding DNA as a means to bolster claims of nationhood, are, at best wishful thinking. The caveat given with the results was that, I paraphrase, 'we are more alike than we are different'; I am happy with that but it appears some hate the idea; who is in denial there? I have no idea why you are going on about 'empire' the empire is gone and rightly so. But even then, be careful about judging how things used to be done using today's moral standards and thinking. If you do not see any need to address those who are the extremes of your cause and call those a 'miniscule minority,' then I feel you are ignoring what is a real thorn in your side, one that could become far bigger. Ironically, does that 'miniscule' minority not have a 'right' to be taken seriously? Why are you ignoring them? I am not.

  • Carvath  |  February 16 2013, 4:20PM

    CallingtonFox, what are your comments on the information given on page 19 of the report, which you wanted to discuss? All researched and signed off, they favour Cornwall as a nation. Virtually all modern interpretations of historical events favour Cornwall in this light eg. Prof Mark Stoyle to name but one. You have to go back decades to find the other interpretation that you seem to adhere to.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 16 2013, 5:06PM

    Carvath, I have gone over all this sevaral times. The report will, as I said before, at least bring things to a head. We shall see if it is accepted or not.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 16 2013, 5:56PM

    Also we need to keep in mind this is a 'minority report,' the wants of the 'majority' must also be considered

  • Chopper8  |  February 16 2013, 6:03PM

    I knew a straight answer was far too much to hope for... by CallingtonFox ''The Welsh 'becoming a part of England was the act of a Welsh monarch ascending the English throne. At the time what would I have thought about this? I have no idea, the world was different and what was accepted as 'right' was as well.'' Well I must admit, you live and learn. I'd always been led to believe that Wales was annexed to England after the enactment of the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284 when EDWARD I was on the throne. Welsh you say? I always thought he was a french speaking Norman but, as ever , you know best. Let's face it. any man arrogant enough to redefine the Oxford English Dictionary isn't going to be deterred by the contrary opinion of every other historian on the planet. The world was different in the C13th undoubtedly, but we're not talking 'ancient history' here. The first recognition that that Wales was, somehow different from the "rest of England" did not come till 1920, when the Church in Wales was separated from the administrative control of the Church of England and made an independent province of the worldwide Anglican communion. It took even longer for this recognition to make its way into civil affairs, and it was only after Labour came to power in the post-1945 period that concessions to Welsh national identity began to be made. Constitutionally, the deciding moment only came in 1955 when Cardiff was recognised as the capital of Wales. This was as close to a formal statement of de-annexation as the United Kingdom was likely to get, and finally recognised Wales as a separate nation within the UK. So, we're talking 50 years, not 500 - changes that happened in your lifetime. Again, I'll repeat the question; Do you or do you not accept that the Cornish situation now is identical to that of the Welsh? Do you or do you not accept that if you were 'debating' the Welsh situation back then -remember, we're only talking 50 years ago - you would be advancing exactly same line of argument that the English establishment of the day was advocating - namely that Wales was legally a part of England and therefore the ''Welsh'' were ''English'' by default? Did you advance that argument at the time? Would you now if the Welsh situation hadn't changed since 1284 - judged, of course, ''using today's moral standards and thinking''? For ''ease of reference'', simple 'Yes' or 'No' answers will suffice. P.S. For your own welfare, if you're ever in Ireland - please don't assume that the terms 'Ireland' and 'Northern Ireland' are interchangeable.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 16 2013, 6:41PM

    Henry VIII, himself of Welsh extraction as a great grandson of Owen Tudor, passed the Laws in Wales Acts aiming to fully incorporate Wales into the Kingdom of England. I do not dispute the facts regarding Edward the 1st but Wales is Wales, either way, not Cornwall. I do not assume Ireland and Northern Ireland are interchangeable, never did. I should have put 'Northern Ireland' as you well know, but then you like to have something to pick on which helps to deflect from the real issues. "Again, I'll repeat the question; Do you or do you not accept that the Cornish situation now is identical to that of the Welsh?" And again I will repeat my answer with a little expansion for you: No, I do not accept "that the Cornish situation now is identical to that of the Welsh", because they are not identical subjects, the histories are different, the reasons behind what happened, are different, the legalities involved are different so, again, no I do not accept the situation is identical. If you want to fight for Cornish nationhood then use Cornish history; which of course brings us back to that history being re-written to further that cause, something I will continue to challenge.

  • Carvath  |  February 17 2013, 9:03AM

    Your response to the important document that YOU wanted to discuss CallingtonFox is disappointing to say the least. "Are we happy that this calling for a national recognition is based on solid facts both current and historical or do you think the opposite? Discuss." As I stated, virtually all of the most recent historical interpretations have favoured Conwall's position (see some on page 19 of document) and the "Victorian" position of Cornwall and the Cornish has long been revised.

  • Chopper8  |  February 17 2013, 11:15AM

    by CarvathSunday, February 17 2013, 9:03AM "Your response to the important document that YOU wanted to discuss CallingtonFox is disappointing to say the least.'' Be honest though,Carvath - at least he's consistent in his complete inability to give a straight answer to a straight question, a conclusion any sane individual with the remotest degree of impartiality would soon ascertain by a glance at his posting history. I'd remarked some time ago about Mr Fox's 'unique' debating style and I wish I'd just followed my own advice back along - it would have saved a lot of my precious time. Simply to pick and choose which ground you're going to contest whilst at the same time disregarding any facts that fail to support your own preconceived opinions and refusing to answer simple straight forward questions does not make for any form of 'debate' or 'discussion' that I'm either familiar or comfortable with. I'm well aware of the game you'r playing Mr Fox, and it 's one I simply can't be bothered indulging you in. Contrary to the impression you like to create, it is blatantly obvious to all that you have beliefs that are set in stone and that no amount of factual and rational argument will divert you from what you are convinced is ,in your own mind, the unshakable truth and with that said, I shall bow out of this thread and bid you good day. I'm sure you'll want to have your little say after this, so I'll let you enjoy your Pyrrhic victory and keep on with your continued proseletyzing, -'Wider still and wider'' eh? That's the spirit! You're certainly a more nuanced practitioner in spreading the Anglo-gospel than any of your fellow travellers on this board.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 17 2013, 3:30PM

    Callington Fox answered your question in full chopper. There has been no self determination of the county for over a thousand years...nor any attempt to resurrect the last known self determining power structure. For a thousand years all authority has been from outside of Cornwall. No amount of cornish nat waffle can change the fact that Cornwall is as much a part of england as any other county.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 17 2013, 4:01PM

    "Are we happy that this calling for a national recognition is based on solid facts both current and historical or do you think the opposite?" It should be quite clear by now that, no, I do not feel the calling for national recognition is based on solid facts. There is obviously a desire for 'recognition' but the foundations being used are very largely shaky or false. But the good thing is, the report, I hope, will bring things to a head.

  • Chopper8  |  February 17 2013, 6:06PM

    by H_TrevorrowSunday, February 17 2013, 3:30PM "Callington Fox answered your question in full chopper.'' No, he's done anything but, but I'm pretty sure he can speak for himself and if I'm 'engaged in a conversation I'd prefer to converse with the organ grinder rather than the monkey, thanks all the same. ''No amount of cornish nat waffle can change the fact that Cornwall is as much a part of england as any other county." Oh dear, wrong again on all counts. If you actually paused in your rush to post your egregious bile to read what has already been posted, you'd realise that I'm not a Nationalists. Still, you're another one who, in their eagerness to spread their anti-Cornish poison, never lets the facts get in the way of their vile prejudice. But since you've decided to add your considerable intellectual weight to this thread, perhaps you'd do me the favour of answering just one little question? We all know that you hide desperately behind a Cornish name in a pathetic attempt to give your pitiful input some sort of legitimacy, but why, when the real H Trevorrow had to post on this board to distance himself from your bigoted rantings, do you persist in causing him and his family upset by continuing to hide behind his name? The fact that you continue to do so -even after he requested you did the decent thing and desist - says much,much more about the type of man that you are than mere words ever can.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 17 2013, 7:15PM

    Chopper8, I really do not know what else to add; if you think I have not answered you, I can only ask that you have a re-read of my posts. The only 'victory' I want, is the truth.

  • Chopper8  |  February 17 2013, 7:50PM

    Fair enough, Mr Fox, I can see that we're never going to bring things to a satisfactory conclusion for either party when we are unable to reach a common understanding on even the most fundamental of points - never mind the minutiae - so, as stated, I shall draw this to a close. I'm still undecided as to whether your failure to understand is down to a lack of clarity on my part, a comprehension fail on yours, a combination of the two - or, you're simply being deliberately antagonistic. As I'm feeling somewhat chilled after a nice meal and a large glass of Red, I'd like to think it's one of the former, so I'll leave you with a phrase from the language of my home nation - that which was spoken for hundreds of years before the arrival of the English to these shores. ''Oll an gwella dheugh why''. (look it up!)

  • youngcornwall  |  February 17 2013, 8:13PM

    Enough to turn the milk sour isn't it.

  • CallingtonFox  |  February 17 2013, 8:22PM

    Chopper8, I will ask you to consider that it is not my 'failure to understand' but yours. For what it is worth, no, I have not set out to be antagonistic; I really am after the truth, nothing more. I am glad you had a nice meal, I did too, might have a beer in a bit, not sure yet. I am still trying to find a translation of the phrase 

  • Carvath  |  February 18 2013, 8:40AM

    CallingtonFox, despite your spin and waffle, you have not shown any of the points made in the document to be false or shaky, as you put it. For someone who started this thread, especialy with a title like you gave it, I would have expected something a bit more definitive.

  • Tstrunk  |  February 18 2013, 10:11AM

    "In attempting to overcome these barriers the Cornish have encountered a legal conundrum whereby they can only bring a case under the Equalities Act if they are a recognised 'racial group', but case law will only identify Cornish people as a 'racial group' once the Cornish successfully prosecute a case of racial discrimination." This quote from the 'Cornish Miority Report' is very light on detail and I'd question just what it is saying or trying to say, if you are looking to say you have been discriminated agaist then explain when this happened and by who and how. Please post some real details of how this discrimination happened. Not some ill thought out idea. Name which local authority treated a person differently for saying they are Cornish, who stopped you having a job or buying house, because you said you are Cornish? The report is split it two areas one, that of being Cornish and the other about Cornwall so why are Mebyon Kernow mention? As they have no right to speak for the people of Cornwall as they are not democratically support by the people. Making school children tick a box is something I find disturbing, why the need to do this it reminds me of a new labour policy, it is all about targets not the real need of the children and a waste of money.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 18 2013, 12:37PM

    The report tries lamely to present cornwall as populated by people seeking recognition as different. Its assumptions on numbers of people who identify as cornish have been discredited bythe recent census. It is akin to a work of fiction that would make the most scurrilous of advertising execs blush. If you read the report with no knowledge or experience of Cornwall you are presented with a false picture of Cornwall and its residence. The report projects small insignificant points of cornish culture, such as st pirans day, as major events that prove national identity.....It fails to point out these markers of identity are modern inventions with little or no relevance to any historical fact. The document is an artificial, manufactured prospectus built on insignificant fetures and over hype and bears little or rather no relationship to the people of the county. It is about as genuine as disney land.

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 18 2013, 12:41PM

    The only example in the report of 'barriers' to the cornish is one about being able to label oneself as cornish black , cornish asian or cornish chinese....do i need to say more?

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 18 2013, 12:58PM

    This outdated and ignored report does not seek to 'maintain and celebrate a distincy identity', it seeks to invent and create a non exsistent identity and force it on people.

  • polgooth  |  February 18 2013, 2:02PM

    Very interesting contributions as ever. HT, I am confused. You lampoon forum labelled "extreme Nats" for their isolated views based upon lack of reasoning, objectivity, and history and then equally refuse to accept a report that is well written, sensible, historically based, inclusive and backed by all the mainstream political parties of the UK ? Rational analysis can only conclude that you are not interested in inclusive debate and by your own comments wish to ignore an informed debate on Cornwall's future even if it is endorsed by the entire spectrum, be it MK or all other mainstream UK parties ? Such an approach is frankly unhelpful and undemocratic and surely makes you the extreme isolationist ? Brgds

  • Taxman100  |  February 18 2013, 3:09PM

    The 'Cornish' have one serious problem. There are the 'Cornish' and then there be the Cornish, and the 'Cornish' be politically opposed to the other sort of Cornish. I be the other sort of Cornish. I be Cornish, he be 'Cornish', but we are not the same "Cornish", cos I be Cornish and he be 'Cornish', but we are not the same "Cornish", cos he speaks some sort of 'Cornish' which my sort of Cornish does not wish to learn or speak, cos we the Cornish know the language is not Cornish at all! The case would be laughed out of court - even the European court. ie: For the plea, 'The Cornish'. Against the plea, The Cornish! I just love being a member of a minority - I didn't know I was one before I first read items on this Forum! Don't worry it will be Flora Day in about two months time and a pint of Spingo at the 'Anchor' will lighten the hearts of the Cornish.

  • polgooth  |  February 18 2013, 3:21PM

    Taxman - Spingo, a great drop indeed, although judging by your post me thinks you've been at it already ! Enjoy .......

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 18 2013, 3:34PM

    I have never heard of any local cllr ever riasing the issue of national minority status. It is a non issue for the public. Politicians signing this report reflects the disconnect between the people and the cllrs and a propensity for self promotion. Rather like the unitary authority it is the product of political ambition not the expression of democratic will of the people. I very much doubt that cllrs understand the full implications of the fcnm....however the report directs them to believe in some very minor disadvantages ie going unrepresented inthe national celebration of the olympics {which was untrue as it turned out}... so my best guess is that if these cllrs were required to justify signing the report in full knowledge of it's potential consequences and having full awareness of fcnm together with a scutiny by the public of thier actions i doubt they would have signed it and possibly regret doing so already especially if it gets more widely publicised

  • polgooth  |  February 18 2013, 4:12PM

    HT - you may not have heard them but you can read them supporting the idea through their signature of the report. Fairly simple to understand really. Just because it may not be something you personally wish to support the fact is the leaders of the all the mainstream political parties represented in the CC have. And whilst we can discuss the advantages or not of the CC it is the permier law making and institutional democratic body in the Duchy. So I agree with the you that we should now use this report as a useful platform to move the discussion forward and as you suggest widen and even chalenge the political debate and narrative to enable the people of Cornwall to determine its own future. Brgds

  • Taxman100  |  February 18 2013, 4:40PM

    polgooth. You may be right, but it wasn't Spingo - sadly!

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 18 2013, 5:03PM

    The report is not a usefull document . It is highly bias propoganda. Polgooth you undermine your own credibility by promoting it and the signees as an expression of democratic will. Give people the full information, not this sales pamphlet, and let them decide , not a handfull of jumped up back scratching parish councillors. You know full well the people of Cornwall want no part of it which is why it has been given such low profile by all involved.

  • polgooth  |  February 18 2013, 5:48PM

    HT - very good. I think we agree. All I have ever asked for is a proper discussion and to let the people decide, which is exactly as you advocate in your second para of your last post. Well done. As for the doc, even it's biggest supporters will agree that it is only a starting point. So let's all agree that what Cornwall needs is a referendum to decide on it's future; be that the status quo, greater devolution or independence. For me, the second option is preferred but let's all agree that whatever our views we can at least support concensus on the need for a proper informed debate and as you say let the people of cornwall decide in a referendum. brgds

  • H_Trevorrow  |  February 18 2013, 6:13PM

    .....or put candidates up for election who support moves for cornwall to be more isolationist and introspective,,,,call them something catchy, i dunno...sons of cornwall or summat, and see how that works out.

  • youngcornwall  |  February 18 2013, 6:32PM

    "and as you say let the people of cornwall decide in a referendum." That is all very well and good if there are enough people interested in a referendum, that doesnt seem to be the case at this present time, apart from a few on a couple of forums chewing over the fat the process is not even it its infancy yet, because the people are not interested, how hard some may try to get them interested.

  • Chopper8  |  February 18 2013, 6:49PM

    by H_TrevorrowMonday, February 18 2013, 6:13PM ".....or put candidates up for election who support moves for cornwall to be more isolationist and introspective,,,,call them something catchy, i dunno...sons of cornwall or summat, and see how that works out." Or why not give them a Cornish name eh, ''Trevorrow''? After all, when it comes to hiding behind a Cornish name you'd be the expert in that field. Oh, and any chance of an answer to the question I asked up thread, if you can spare the time in between posting your usual tripe?

  • polgooth  |  February 18 2013, 6:55PM

    Like the fourteen percent who turned out for the recent police commissioner election ? I actually think a three question referendum, status quo, greater devolution or independence would be closer than many think with the middle option edging it over the first. But until we have a vote we will never know. Brgds

  • Slimslad  |  February 18 2013, 7:37PM

    "I actually think a three question referendum, status quo, greater devolution or independence" Really? What else, I wonder? Votes for the unborn?

  • Slimslad  |  February 18 2013, 7:43PM

    "All I have ever asked for is a proper discussion and to let the people decide"? Which is exactly what happens every time a Mebyon Kernow candidate stands for election. http://tinyurl.com/y6m3mw9 "It is our belief that the historic nation of Cornwall, with its own distinct identity, language and heritage, has the same right to self-determination as Scotland and Wales. "

  • Carvath  |  February 18 2013, 8:16PM

    You have a conveniently short memory Slimslad: "Cornwall County Council's Feb 2003 MORI poll showed 55% in favour of an elected, fully devolved regional assembly for Cornwall and 13% against. (Previous result :46% in favour in 2002). The campaign had the support of all five Cornish Lib Dem MPs, Mebyon Kernow, and Cornwall Council." http://tinyurl.com/bx4s592

  • Slimslad  |  February 18 2013, 9:12PM

    MORI poll? Is not the electorate. Not even a tiny percentage of the electorate. You just keep "moving the goalposts", there's a good chap.

  • Carvath  |  February 18 2013, 9:43PM

    Feeble remark, Slimslad. I think Mori know how to account for that - sampling, etc. they're world experts.

  • polgooth  |  February 19 2013, 1:07AM

    Slimslad - so just to be clear. You do not agree with referendums. So irrespective of the forthcoming Scottish and proposed EU votes you will choose to ignore/not participate. Opinion polls are flawed, despite their global use and accepted practice of a plus or minus error rate of +- 2 percent. And the unborn should perhaps be able to vote. Many thanks for your helpful and objective input and views. brgds

  • Slimslad  |  February 19 2013, 5:11PM

    "I actually think a three question referendum, status quo, greater devolution or independence" "You do not agree with referendums"? I said no such thing, but a "three question referendum"? Please! "All I have ever asked for is a proper discussion and to let the people decide"? Which is exactly what happens every time a Mebyon Kernow candidate stands for election. Not a sample, not a poll not a three question referendum , a democratic vote. What are these people frightened of?

  • Slimslad  |  February 19 2013, 5:16PM

    "Feeble remark, Slimslad. I think Mori know how to account for that - sampling, etc. they're world experts." Support for independence continues to fall as Labour narrows gap with SNP. http://tinyurl.com/a79t6eg Too easy.

  • Carvath  |  February 19 2013, 5:41PM

    Completely irrelevant, Slimslad.

  • Slimslad  |  February 19 2013, 7:33PM

    "Completely irrelevant, Slimslad."? Referendum? MORI? Back to the misty moors of C24 with you. LOL

  • Carvath  |  February 20 2013, 8:43AM

    Some of us have a choice Slimslad, some don't.

  • polgooth  |  February 20 2013, 3:55PM

    slimslad - my apologies, i clearly misunderstood your fulsome answer of "really ?" as questioning the relevance of referenda in general. Clearly my mistake rather than your lack of clarity. Now that this has been cleared up, i would appreciate your valuable and ever articulate insight on how such a process should be structured and what/how may questions should be asked ? If not three inclusive questions covering the political debate then how many and what ? Your point on General Election results/voting being paramount and accepted as a mandate for key institutional and sovereign change also requires clarity. All such UK decisions in the recent past and in the near future have/will, been/be decided through a referendum and not based upon GE results. Your last point on votes for the unborn .......... well frankly to strange for me comment, i look forward to your enlightened interpretation ? brgds

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